Jesus’ Wife Matters a Lot — and Not at All

The recently discovered papyrus reminds us that a celibate, all-male priesthood needs reform

  • Share
  • Read Later
Harvard Divinity School / Karen L. King / AFP / Getty Images

The papyrus fragment that quotes Jesus referring explicitly to his wife˜

The Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests — a breakaway group founded in 2002 — sent out an e-mail yesterday announcing that its bishops will ordain six new female clerics next month. (The howl you just heard was from the archconservative Catholic League.) These ladies have nothing if not good timing: their missive immediately made me think of last week’s news from Harvard Divinity School that an early Christian text asserts Jesus was married and suggests his wife was a disciple — which would indicate women were eligible for the Catholic priesthood all along. But it also reminded me of the other reaction I usually have to these Da Vinci Code–ish historical discoveries about Jesus: So what?

(MORE: Padgett: Why We’re Still Catholics)

As a Catholic, I do think Jesus scholarship is important. What experts like John Dominic Crossan and others have done to illuminate Christ the man and his ancient milieu enhances religion as well as the record — it raises questions that prod us to examine our faith and its purpose more deeply. But its value in that regard is also limited. As I’ve written on this site before, you could show me incontrovertible scientific proof that Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth or that he didn’t rise from the dead, and it wouldn’t dampen my faith one iota. Likewise, handing me hard evidence that Mary was indeed a virgin mother, or that the resurrection did occur, wouldn’t do much to reinforce it. Faith doesn’t, or shouldn’t, work that way.

Which is why the revelation by Harvard professor Karen King — that a Coptic papyrus fragment quotes Jesus as saying “my wife” as well as declaring that a woman believed to be that spouse, perhaps Mary Magdalene, is one of his apostles — makes me both turn my head and shrug my shoulders. If Jesus was a husband and did consider a woman as clerically worthy as Peter and the rest of the apostolic crew, it matters a lot, for all the reasons Tom Hanks discovers in the (very fictional) Da Vinci Code. That is, it calls into further question one of the Catholic Church’s most questionable constructs, a celibate, all-male priesthood. But in another sense, it doesn’t matter at all: we didn’t need a codex to convince us that a Messiah as human and compassionate as Jesus did not intend his priesthood to look, and in many cases behave, the way it still does today.

(MORE: Padgett: Sorry, Rome: U.S. Catholics Are More Like Melinda Gates)

To understand why the papyrus merits more than just biblical or historical curiosity, consider another religion-related event this month. On Sept. 6, Bishop Robert Finn of Kansas City was convicted on a misdemeanor charge of failing to report suspected child abuse, making him the highest-ranking member of the U.S. Catholic Church hierarchy to be found guilty of shielding pedophile priests. (Earlier this year in Philadelphia, Monsignor William Lynn was convicted on a felony charge of concealing child-abuse claims in his diocese.) I’m not suggesting that allowing Catholic priests to marry or women to be priests would have stopped the abuse that’s rocked the church. Pedophiles prey regardless of gender or marital status. But I will argue that it could have helped prevent the just as pervasive and just as criminal cover-ups.

And I base that contention on the overweening clericalism that plagues so much of the Catholic priesthood — and which is, at least in part, a consequence of the required celibacy and exclusion of women. Most priests are of course good men and do godly work, and their celibacy per se is not the problem. I respect it — if it’s the priest’s choice. But as I wrote last year when Lynn was arrested, the mandatory segregation of diocesan priests and bishops from the world of wives and children has for centuries risked sending the message that those human joys would somehow sully their vocations — that those things are inferior to the priesthood, and therefore aren’t as worthy of protection as the holy fraternity is. Hence, in my view, one cause of the monstrous insensitivity of church bosses like Lynn.

That also explains why it’s welcome to hear any historical evidence that Jesus didn’t consider clerical marriage or female ordination anathema to the religion he founded. But again, such evidence isn’t, or shouldn’t be, necessary.

(MORE: Padgett: The Catholic Contraction)

The kind of belief we associate with faith doesn’t rise or fall on archeological digs or, as in The Da Vinci Code’s case, decrypted symbology. At their core, religions are stories, dramas so powerfully meaningful that they become for billions of people their cultural means of communing with God. Five years ago atheist zealots hooted and Christian fundamentalists hollered when The Lost Tomb of Jesus,a documentary produced by Titanic director James Cameron, claimed to have unearthed confirmation that Christ never left his grave. But both sides got it wrong: from Christians to Hindus to pagans, most believers don’t predicate their shared faith that light ultimately defeats darkness on the laboratory verification of ancient miracle narratives.

So just as I don’t get that worked up when a “find” purports to debunk my faith, I don’t get too excited when one appears to validate my faith. Or at least my convictions about the Catholic clergy, as King’s Jesus-was-married codex would seem to do. At a time when the Vatican, panicked by growing Catholic support for female ordination, is senselessly hounding U.S. nuns for their “radical feminism,” the latest piece of papyrus does serve as a useful reminder of how wrong Rome is in this matter. But most of us knew that long before King deciphered it.

166 comments
smbarry
smbarry

Padget ought not write on subjects about which he is profoundly ignorant.

xLocke
xLocke

You know what is funny? This little fragment was found to be a total fraud. hahaha, terrible reporting Tim.

Chibz
Chibz

May I volunteer that all those who mindlessly campaign for married clergy actually demean marriage. In catholic teaching, marriage is a SACRAMENT every bit as worthy as Holy Orders. Celibacy per se is not, religious may practice it without any orders conferred. However,this ceaseless campaign that unmarried clergy (who btw. became thus entirely by choice) be "allowed" to marry to take care of their creature comforts, reduce marriage to just that! On the contrary, marriage is a demanding (probably much more so than any orders) and very venerable VOCATION of its own right, and the marriage bed is indeed an ALTAR! Married people deserve the right to be left alone to fully concentrate on their primary vocation, the very demanding work of raising and taking good care of their families, without having to cater to others spiritual needs on the side.

A slight change in perspective can do a whole lot of clarifying, can't it!

Rajinder Nijjhar
Rajinder Nijjhar

 

Hi Brethren,

Please pass this article to others that you may find looking for Gospel Truth. Blessed are the SOLITARY VIRGINS OF CHRIST JESUS AND CHRIST = SATGURU NANAK DEV JI.

Jesus has Virgin Twice-born Solitary Wives but hardly anyone can envisage this because they are dead in the Letters of the Bible that they happily bury their dead in discussions and seminars.

What is written is RIGHT but the men of Letters like the Jerusalem theologians cannot understand the spiritual language. Samaritans were spiritual people and that is why the Samaritan Woman at well in John4 recognised Christ Jesus to be a Prophet and told Him of the nature of Christ that will appear. She was St.Photina but these men of Letters still call her a bad woman marrying one Husband after the other. After that She became the Wife of Christ Jesus and so the people of her whole village. I am the Virgin Solitary Wife of Christ Jesus as I Preach Gospel by understanding what came out of the mouth of Jesus called Eating the Flesh of Jesus and when I Preach what Christ Jesus did, I Drink the Blood of Christ. How many of you know that not a single Jew died during the holocaust because a Jew is a Spiritual self and not the physical tribal self?  Holocausts were as the result of the Blind Guides, Rabbis, leading the blind into the Pit. So, you cannot blame Hitler for the deaths of the people of Judah, Levi, Benjamin, etc. tribes but the Chosen People themselves for rejecting Christ Jesus who came especially for them and not for the Gentile who were already sons of God. It is the same spirit that not a single Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, etc. died during the world wide riots but the tribal people. In fact, every Plant, person, that my heavenly father, Yahweh, the creator of Nature, did not plant, forgot his tribal identity, shall be uprooted by the roots, supporters as in the religious fanaticism or other non-tribal political parties such as Communists, Labour, Conservative, etc.

I have put up a Playlist on Youtube channel nijjhar1. Look for the wives of Jesus or if this link is allowed:-

http://www.youtube.com/playlis...

Finally, Christ Jesus had Labourers that He employed in the Vineyard of our Father where the True Vine Christ Jesus, The Foreman, is Planted by our Father. You enter into this Vineyard through the Narrow Gate that a Few find it by the grace of our Father. At Pentecost, the Labourers were paid their Wage of Holy Spirit when the only Once-Born Labourer Simon nick-named Peter was extremely Happy and started Preaching Gospel.

Disciple is from discipline and the moral teachers Rabbis, John, the Baptist, etc. had Disciples but not Christ Jesus. Messianic Jews corrupted the New Testament as well and became the cruel masters of the once-born devotees. You know how the Pope killed those who raised their voices. As in Jesus, everyone is to give his own account to God, so anyone who stands between people and God in any form is an ANTI CHRIST.

You wouldn’t like my views if you are a Judas Iscariot in sheep’s clothing. Judas Iscariot was a Thief stealing from the Purse. Those who work for God give to the Church of God and not take out of it as Christ Paul stressed. These Dog-Collared Priests in Churches are the Judas Iscariots. They work for Mammon and not for God. This is called turning stones, the once-born members of congregations, into bread AND THEY ARE THE GREATEST HYPOCRITES.

UNLESS A FEMALE BECOMES A MALE, SHE CANNOT BE FISHED INTO THE ROYAL KINGDOM OF GOD. That is why; Christ Jesus made His Wives Fishers of Men and not of the Women.

My Seminars are FREE and you can speak to me on 00441189666345. PLEASE FORWARD THIS E-MAIL ON TO THE INTERESTED PEOPLE.

 

Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.Retired Lecturer in Metallurgy.Holy spirit, common sense, shatters the fetters of the Letters, Holy Books.Holy spirit = spirit of men = Dunyavi Surti = common senseHoly Spirit = Spirit of God = Roohani Surti = Extra Ordinary Sense.The Wage paid to the Twelve Labourers at Pentecost was Holy Spirit.All the Twelve Labourers became the Twin Brethren of our anointed Elder Brother Christ Jesus.Paul became the Twin Brother in Faith through Grace and not the Works under Moral LawsIn Christ Jesus, we are no more Slaves to sins or the Moral laws but to the Righteousness in God.

Over 2700 Youtube Videos on all aspects of religion.Youtube Videos: http://uk.youtube.com/profile?...

Ali Mahjoub
Ali Mahjoub

Hello everyone! I see , this article about the ancient piece of  papyrus that claimed Jesus had a wife, had started a great deal of conversation on Jesus and christianity in general. To those who are curious enough on this subject, I would encourage you to check on Rev. Moon's teaching in the Divine Principle, in the Mission of the Messiah Chapter. There is enough thought-provocking concepts there, that could satisfy your curiosities. To name just a few, (1) Jesus' death was a tragic death and against God's desired Will, this is why God had prepared the so called"Chosen People" (2) also He sent a so called great Saint, John the Baptist, that wasn't a great saint, but a dismal failure after all! (3) Jesus was sent as a Second Adam and was meant to mary a Second Eve, have a true family and live a long life. (4) though, it is not stated in the Divine Principle, Rev. Moon had revealed it in his speeches numerous times, that Jesus had a biological father, his father was Zachariah the priest, the father of John the Baptist! Read my book, Honor Thy God, it had all this stuff and much more. 

Abigail Leigh Earle
Abigail Leigh Earle

When Jesus referred to his "wife," he meant the Church.  I do not believe women should have the position of cleric because men are to be leaders, and women the support.  The roles of men and women are completely different.  I am a woman, by the way.  Letting men do the leading is not degrading to women, because, after all, we are the ones who bear the children, run the household, and manage the expenses.  We have enough on our hands.  Besides, women, being the emotional creatures we are, are bound to go by our feelings in matters of policy and leadership more so than men, thus possibly leading to disaster, because humans are a fallen race.  

William Meinen
William Meinen

To the moderator:

If I spoke wrongly in regards to the comment that is being delayed-feel free

to comment as to what.

Thank you.

William Meinen
William Meinen

That is why I post Acts 8:26-40.

It shows how the Ethiopian eunuch was searching the scriptures even though'

he did not understand all he was reading.

He needed help from God and the Holy Spirit to come to the right answer.

He was given that help.

We believe God will also help you if you sincerely want it.

We also believe that if you are wicked, you can't expect God to help you.

And if that is so, you can flounder around and assert all the lies you want and

some might even believe you.

It just won't be true Christians.

You will just have to take it somewhere else. 

William Meinen
William Meinen

dougT:

In response to your comment below:

If taken from your merely human standpoint you would be right.

The reasoning is:

The Bible is the oldest book and still today the most widely distributed book in

existence that:

Explains where we came from, why we are in this imperfect state and how we

can expect to rise above it and have a family relationship with God.

The  prophesies contained in it were fulfilled in detail some two hundred of these

were in regard to Jesus birth, His ministry and miracles, His death, and His

resurrection which was witnessed by at least 500 people.

It successfully explains how to lead a meaningful life that God approves of.

Further prophecies in this book explain what to expect in the near and distant

future.

Why can Christians today still rely on both the Hebrew (Old Testament) and the

Greek (New Testament)?

1. Jesus himself quoted from the Hebrew scriptures and pointed out the prophesies

that related to His life and ministry, His death and resurrection and what His

role and work is right now and into the future.

Tell me how a person can predict the manner, place and circumstances of their

own birth in advance by hundreds of years.

2. Jesus Apostles and disciples did likewise.

3. Your assertions about who, what and how the Bible was written would need to

be taken one at a time and considered carefully.

 

What you don't seem to grasp is that, whether you choose to believe in the Bible

as God's (creator) communication to man or not- is completely your responsibility,

not mine.

If you chose not to believe in what the Bible says, right now you have the right to do

so.  This period of time is almost over.

What Christians are asserting is this:

We believe we have very good reasons to believe it and we choose to follow what

it says to the best of our ability.

From what we learned from the Bible, the time for developing a prayerful relationship

with the King of the Heavenly Kingdom by Christ resurrected is coming to a close.

A time of judgement by our God is fast approaching and each person on this

earth will be judged based on:

How did this person use the life given to them?

How well did this person use the time given to develop a good relationship with me?

What kind of heart (inner self) motivates this person.

Christians try to appeal to you to act to save your own future life.

What you do in this regard is up to you and the results again, are yours to

win or lose.

 

how do you explain that the main tales of jesus existed hundreds and

thousands of years before he was born. How do you reconcile that

certain scripture was cannonized by men to be included in the bible and

other was thrown out? I don't care whether you are christian or not.

Common sense can be attributed or lacking to all people, religious or

nonreligious. What I say is that you should do what 99.9% of religous

people don't bother doing, look into the history and origin of your

faith, including your sacred texts. You may be very suprised.Read more: http://ideas.time.com/2012/09/...

 

JD King
JD King

It is unfortunate that a “breakaway” group is needed for women to hold clerical positions in (for the sake of this article) the Roman Catholic Church. Too many members of Bible based faiths use scripture as a means to not only justify but perpetuate inequality—consequentially missing out on the true heart of God’s message. 

My dad once told me to look at the Bible as a diary that provides insight into the heart of the God, rather than a book of rules outlining all of the “thou shalt nots.” Is it more important to abstain from marriage and sex because perhaps Jesus did not have a wife, or were those details omitted because we are meant to grasp the significance of Jesus’ life and purpose? I am willing to bet He is more concerned with significance. 

Do I have a problem with evidence that possibly proves Jesus had a wife despite the Bible not mentioning it? No, I have a problem with the fact that some church leaders have taken it upon themselves to misconstrue missing details to validate disallowing women to hold leadership positions in the church

Brian Durocher
Brian Durocher

Well, I actually read that the fragment was a fake,  and I read an analysis from a fellow from Durham University stating it was so. Also, the Harvard review has stated planly they will not publish King's work because they believe the fragment to be fake. Probably a modern forgery. Here are some references:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new... amp; http://markgoodacre.org/Watson...

dkj92590
dkj92590

Jesus wife is the church. When Jesus returns to earth to execute swift judgement those who are saved that day will be his wife. in the gospel of matt. it states: and I will seperate them one from the other as a sheperd divides his flock and the lambs will be on my rigtht hand and the goats my left. those on my right will go into life eternal and those on my left to everlasting contempt.

dkj92590
dkj92590

Jesus wife is the church and those that are saved when he returns to gather his lambs on his right and the goats on his left. the lambs will go into life eternal and the goats into everlasting contempt. His wife is the church.

kylc
kylc

Tim,

Quit playing games.  You're not Catholic, you're Anglican!  The faster you realize that every single want you hunger for in a religion is found on the steps of Canterbury the happier you'll be. 

Married priests [check] 

Female priestesses [check] 

Gay marriage [check] 

Contraception and abortion [check, check] 

Jesus is just one among equals in a list that includes: Mohamed, Buddha and fill in the blank [check, check, check] 

The Anglican/Episcopalian communion is bleeding members, you're Anglican my brotha!  Welcome to the fold.

kylc
kylc

Tim,

Quit playing games.  You're not Catholic, you're Anglican!  The faster you realize that every single want you hunger for in a religion is found on the steps of Canterbury the happier you'll be. 

Married priests [check] 

Female priestesses [check] 

Gay marriage [check] 

Contraception and abortion [check, check] 

Jesus is just one among equals in a list that includes: Mohamed, Buddha and fill in the blank [check, check, check] 

The Anglican/Episcopalian communion is bleeding members, you're Anglican my brotha!  Welcome to the fold.

owl905
owl905

"Anyone claiming to be a Christian in the 3rd century could write on a papyrus

claiming Jesus..."

The 3rd century scripture quote isn't a first edition any more than copies of the core gospels written in the 3rd century were first edition.   The oldest surviving fragment of gospel is from John, dated about 125AD.  The movement to transfer the oral traditions of the movement to a written codex was mid-3rd century.

Controversy surrounding marriage, sex, and disciples wasn't rare in the early Christian movement, and the Coptic fragment's context suggest an original data mid-point of 250AD (probably not a co-incidence) - when the Christian movement was fragmenting on a wide variety of missing answers.

Dave Turson
Dave Turson

 Basic Christianity: Adam sinned before having children and he

passed to his children death through their inherited sinful nature. Jesus did

not inherit this sin/death

 because he came direct from heaven and was born to a virgin. Jesus could

not die by natural causes since he was born perfect -- if he ever sinned while

alive in this world  he would begin to die, just like everyone else. Jesus

came into the word to die for our sins as a still perfect man -- a sacrifice. 

Anyone claiming to be a Christian in the 3rd century could write on a papyrus

claiming Jesus had said this or that. I could write

a book called the Book of Dave -- care to read it? Bottom line: Jesus would not

take a wife because marriage entails having

children -- all the people saved from our world are

his children in the new world to come.

JohnParish
JohnParish

Help support the change in the way election campaign funds

are raised.  Stop the Super Pacs from

steering the candidates and ruling the government. 

Come march on Congress and show them that the American

Population do not want candidates to be persuaded by these Super Pacs any more.

Visit www.indiegogo.com/SuperPac

and help raise the awareness of this problem.

R Rodriguez
R Rodriguez

First of all, remember that the nature of Jesus is both human AND devine...not just human.  That fact makes Him uniquely suited for His special mission of redeeming the human race, not populating it.  Also, Jesus called His church which is made up of the people, His mystical body and His BRIDE (read wife)and He the head and SPOUSE.

George McDowell
George McDowell

What can you feel but pity for anyone who cares whether or not someone 2000 years ago was screwing his wife or having sex with her out of wedlock? Grow up people! There is no god.

And don't forget that this Jesus character was dark skinned. He wasn't from Europe, you know!

arvay
arvay

"As I’ve written on this site before, you could show me incontrovertible scientific proof that Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth or that he didn’t rise from the dead, and it wouldn’t dampen my faith one iota. Likewise, handing me hard evidence that Mary was indeed a virgin mother, or that the resurrection did occur, wouldn’t do much to reinforce it. Faith doesn’t, or shouldn’t, work that way."

This is the core problem with religion. It trains people to base their ideas on unprovable assertions rather than facts. Believing in the virgin birth or resurrection is relativel harmless -- but the same "thought" process can and does apply to racism and birthism. 

shimmanni
shimmanni

I know and many others will know that Tim Padgett's Christian religion is as firm as a rock which can't be changed by an archeological discovery or two, but he doesn't know and won't acknowledge, either, that the bottom line of the ancient papyrus thing is somewhere else. The point is that of power, that is, the ecclesiastical power, which has long talked its clerics and lay believers into believing that Jesus had been the son of the Virgin Mary, and he had lived the life of celibacy, by which the huge power structure of Roman Catholics has been established. My initial theory is that the Roman Catholic clerics had from the earliest times known the stark truth, that is, the real identity of Jesus, but they had covered it up for their own selfish ends.

LightningBolt
LightningBolt

As a Catholic, I am personally glad Jesus had the comfort and companionship - not to mention, love of a wife.

BettyinColumbia
BettyinColumbia

C'mon, Tim...just admit that you're not a true Catholic, just Catholic in name only. You can't pick and choose the parts of the Faith to believe in.  Your faith is not very strong. How dare you say that Rome is wrong when it has protected our Faith for over 2000 years.

libertyislife
libertyislife

A person only has to go through a horrible illness where the neurosurgeons and all the doctors believe there is no chance of survival; family fly across the country to see their love one for the last time; the chances of survival are less than winning the biggest lottery in the nation.  Then after coming home after months in intensive care, one gets another crisis which means another hospital stay.  Then months and months of therapy; then another hospital visit for reconstruction surgery.  Then recovery!!!  When first driving after all of this, I looked out at the beautiful California sky, the lovely trees and flowers and everything around me and thought:  who in the world would not believe in God!!!   It just takes faith.  There is no way no how God is not out there, who but He could create such impossible things as a baby in the womb, ten toes, ten fingers, the brain, etc. and this lovely world we live in.

May God bless all of you and you non-believers, may He show you in some way that He is.

rahatakhan
rahatakhan

Although I follow a different faith. There is one additional point I would like to add to the observations above, As I understand God wants his religions to flourish with expand being the keyword here. If you agree then there is also the fact that all religions actually expand by example.

Then what I don't understand is why Christianity promotes monogamy and life-long devotion to one's spouse, and having children (to expand God's kingdom), there are even laws against adultery. It is all given to the masses in the form of doctrine, never by example. My point is shouldn't the hierarchy at the top also be practicing whatever they preach. After all we all subconsciously do follow by example.

frankblank
frankblank

Meh.  As shown by the current state of America, where the "we are a Christian nation" people completely ignore the teachings of Jesus year in year out, faith is more a matter of convenience than anything else.

Danny Ballard
Danny Ballard

The children of the Deceiver (The Devil), will do anything to discredit the life of Jesus Christ. By the way, I would not trust any scientific facts that is not conclusive. When the time comes, everyone will know the truth of our existence and the false sway of man and knowledge. In other words, all the truth will be known soon and all lies will be brought to light.

dudester4
dudester4

I can't understand how writers for such a popular and well-known publication such as Time can make such specious and already debunked arguments about the priesthood.

Quit taking the priest scandal out of context and drawing illogical conclusions!  By this same logic, shrinks should also be prevented client contact, mothers prevented access to their children, and children  separated from teachers!  Research your "Catholic" faith as to why Dan Brown's fictional account of Jesus' life is, in fact fiction, and if you have issues with fundamental doctrines of the Church, find one that pleases you instead.  Don't try to hug "your church" while you pee on its shoes.

William Meinen
William Meinen

 dudester4:

People are upset at the Catholic church because the church failed it's own flock

in three very fundamental ways:

First, it failed to follow Jesus directive that His work was to be done two

person teams. Thus protecting the preacher/counselor and the one being

counseled.

Second: The Church allowed the "wolves" to freely prey upon it's own flock.

High church officials failed to stop sex abuse even when they knew about

it-they just moved these offending priests around to prey on other

flocks.

Third: High Church officials failed to report the criminal activity to authorities

and instead tried to cover it up.

Again I ask: What motivates a person to be Catholic?

Why on earth do you support the Catholic church?

 

Danyz
Danyz

For crying out loud, this is not news! Anyone familair with theology knows there are countless largely unpublished versions of the Gospels. The Gospel of Thomas has Jesus kissing his female disciples - and not in a formal way. The Gospel of Peter has talking animals in it. It goes without saying then that the task of scholars at that time was to ferret out the fakes and find the historically valid writings. Even a few books in today's New Testement were, at the time of their introduction into church cannon, controversial in nature, e.g., the Book of  Revelation, Second Peter, etc.

One poster here points out that Jesus, as a rabbi, would naturally have to be married and that celibacy goes against Jewish tradition. But he ignores the fact that the Essenes, who gave us the Dead Sea Scrolls, practiced strict celibacy.

Simple logic too dictates Jesus' marital status. If you knew you were on a special mission and were going to die at 33, would marriage be an option for you? And where are the descendants of a supposed marriage? Again, simple logic tells us that such offspring would have been major figures in the early church, as Mohammed's descendants were in Islam. And yet they are simply not there in any hisorical record. 

 

As for those breakaway nuns, unfortunately this kind of nonsense has been part and parcel of the Christian experience from day one. The benefit here is that the bogus makes the truthful all the more salient.

Chibz
Chibz

@Danyz Can't be better said! Never seen any other topic generate so much quasi-intellectualism like Christian doctrine in general and the Catholic Church in particular. Its refreshing to have all the (il)logic exposes every once in a while. 

Cheers.