Why We Still Need Affirmative Action

Removing race from the admissions equation forces schools to be blind to one of the key factors in people's lives

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A protestor in front of the U.S. Supreme Court on Oct. 10, 2012 in Washington.

Right now the Supreme Court holds the fate of affirmative action in its hands, and things don’t look good. Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin pits a school that believes affirmative action and diversity are key to its mission against a young white woman who failed to get into the university and blames that on the school’s use of race as a factor in the admissions process. Experienced court watchers are certain that Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor will side with the university and that Justices Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia and Samuel Alito and Chief Justice John Roberts will side with Fisher. Once again, Justice Anthony Kennedy is the swing vote, and this time he appears to be leaning toward the conservatives. (Justice Elena Kagan recused herself because she worked on the case as solicitor general.)

(MORE: Will Same-Sex Marriage Reach the Supreme Court?)

The end of affirmative action would have profound implications for higher education, leaving the U.S.’s top universities and graduate schools whiter. Because intergenerational mobility is tied to college attendance and joining America’s leadership is linked to admission to the top selective universities and graduate programs, the removal of affirmative action would only increase the already overwhelming whiteness of the upper echelon of American society. A study by Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger found that graduating from selective universities does not increase the earnings likelihood for middle-class whites but does significantly increase the earnings likelihood for black and Hispanic students and those from less affluent backgrounds, so affirmative action has a direct impact on the economic future of America. I have seen this at work in my own family.

I do not think I am any smarter or harder-working than my father, but I have outearned and outachieved him because he grew up during segregation while I grew up in the 1970s, during the early wave of diversity admissions at private schools that had not previously been open to black and Hispanic students. The greater educational and professional opportunities I had because of affirmative action multiplied my chances of success and gave my life a very different shape than my dad’s. Affirmative action provided us with a slight counterbalance to the powerful force called white privilege. Doing away with racial consideration would reduce the black and brown presence at selective schools and limit intergenerational class mobility even further. The problem is not that students who don’t belong are being admitted; it’s not that they can’t earn a place; it’s that blacks and Hispanics are losing the lifelong battle against the constantly accumulating benefits of white privilege. The places I studied and worked did not have a quota system but had an understanding that a diverse body is inherently better than a monolithic one for all involved. Affirmative action is not merely a corrective for past imbalance but also a way of ensuring that the American Dream is available to all.

(MORE: What Asian Americans Reveal About Affirmative Action)

Removing race from the admissions equation forces schools to be blind to one of the key factors in people’s lives. Quota systems became unconstitutional years ago, so we are not talking about a mechanical relationship to race in admissions. There are no black slots in a class, nor should there be. At the University of Texas, as at many schools, race is one of a dozen or more factors considered in a holistic review of a student.

I cannot be seen through a color-blind lens and do not wish to be. Race is an important factor of who I am and how I am perceived, which is the case for all human beings, at least in America. And pretending not to see race doesn’t mean you don’t see it. The deans of Harvard and Yale’s law schools recently wrote a joint editorial saying, “We do not understand how a rule forbidding all consideration of race could possibly be enforced.” If an applicant mentions race, or if his or her race becomes clear during the application process, which often includes face-to-face meetings, then what charade should follow? It sounds like a sort of intellectual Prohibition would result, and as we all know, people drank during Prohibition; they just did it secretly.

(MORECounterpoint: How Affirmative Action Backfires at Universities)

Pushing race into the shadows is not the answer. Despite several decades of affirmative action, the black unemployment rate remains double the white unemployment rate, over 13% vs. under 7%. Blacks are, studies show, half as likely to get a job offer as whites presenting identical qualifications, and blacks with a clean record do no better in searching for low-wage work than whites with a felony conviction. Blacks remain severely underrepresented on campuses and in occupations requiring a degree. Yet in spite of all that, many white people have somehow come to view their race as the object of discrimination. A question Chief Justice Roberts asked repeatedly at the hearing in the Fisher case was, “When will we reach critical mass?” Meaning, how many black and Hispanic students will it take to satisfy the goal of diversity? Or, to put it more broadly, when will affirmative action no longer be needed? The question cannot be answered by any precise metric, but we are nowhere near that point.

86 comments
RobertSneed
RobertSneed

Khristina K,you said its the Crackers world ,don,t be decieved woman its GODS WORLD,,and people alike,no color stigmatation

RobertSneed
RobertSneed

G,O,P, Grand,Old,Puppets  they are showing their old ancient human behavior does not mix with todays times,,it,s like water and oil...

RobertSneed
RobertSneed

Fox News is the base for the G O P,, each and everytime the Republi/kkklans want to or try to shame Obama they run to Fox News thats the KKKLAN BASE,, Fox News

RobertSneed
RobertSneed

GOP don,t throw stones at a glass house as you can see ,,your party is slowly but surely condemming C Christy,,S Pellan ,E Cantor etc the list go,es on  Why should the American people put Thugs in the White House who do not represent the Democrates nor our policies  ,, 

RobertSneed
RobertSneed

These Ameri/kkklans Republi/kkklans have no solutions for our American Policies,,but instead the GOP rather bash our second term President for his high flying color Policies..GOP do not hate appreciate..You want the White House with your ISIS POLICIES ,Republi/kkklans do not appreciate our Government,,GOP solute the black flag of ISIS.....

lbuckley7890
lbuckley7890

Quote: "Despite several decades of affirmative action, the black unemployment rate remains double the white unemployment rate, over 13% vs. under 7%. Blacks are, studies show, half as likely to get a job offer as whites presenting identical qualifications, and blacks with a clean record do no better in searching for low-wage work than whites with a felony conviction. "


So you are saying AA has NOT worked but people should still keep doing it?

punia101
punia101

And how do you guys down there opposing affirmative action plan to actually get rid of it? Guess what, there is no way. Minority students that get admitted into these schools are not less qualified than the white student, because numbers do not represent an entire person. The SAT is supposed to be a sort of aptitude test, yet those from a higher economic background an pump thousands of dollars in giving their kids SAT classes and then achieving that magic SAT score. The truth of the matter is that most of these upper-class people are white. As an Asian going through college admissions, I would gladly give up my spot for a minority student who has had to struggle to get their 1800 score and have had to balance a life of trouble. Most of these "black scholarships" also have an economic requirement, which is completely justified. The minority student faces massive discrimination when they graduate from college and get into the workforce; it is a complete fallacy to think that we are currently living in a post-racist society. We are not living in a meritocracy; get that Utopian vision out of your head. Diversity is important and necessary. The white student that didn't get into Harvard will still get into an exceptional university, and if he/she does work as hard as people claim she does, she will have no problem getting a job. We need to look past ourselves and support society in America.


Also check out: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/april/walton-affirmative-action-042612.html

White students DO NOT deserve it more than black/Hispanic students.

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

NO! WE DON'T NEED RACE-BASED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN COLLEGE ADMISSION!

A nation that aspires to achieve racial equality cannot and should not support institutionalized racist policy.We can only end racial discrimination by ending racial discrimination, not by starting a new kind of racial discrimination, such as the racial preference policy in college admissions which is still widely practiced by many higher institutions.

The racial preference affirmative action in college and university admissions has its unintended consequences which the proponents of affirmative action conveniently and continuously ignore. Self-righteous social engineering policy, which might even benefit one or few individuals, such as Justice Sotomayor, always fails on a grand scale.And once again, it was so eloquently argued by Law Professor Gail Heriot in her recent essay, "The Sad Irony of Affirmative Action". (http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-irony-of-affirmative-action)

Asian Americans Against Affirmative Action (AAAAA)

Visit us at https://www.facebook.com/AgainstAA

dbnupefromdp
dbnupefromdp

@ItsKrisB @toure @timeideas In Michigan since AA voted out, only benefit is to foreign Asian students. Fact.

JasonBiggs33
JasonBiggs33

@ItsKrisB @Toure @TIMEIdeas i guess when you are a college dropout, you do need affirmative action

Joshua Allen
Joshua Allen

One more thing I'd like to add. You say Blacks and Hispanics Toure, but the reality is that mostly blacks benefit from Affirmative Action. I lost counts of how many scholarships in my high school said "Blacks only" but very few said "Hispanics only." I would say about 5:1 ratio (and that is generous). You are not fighting for Hispanics Toure, only blacks which is fine. But don't sit there and tell me that you are fighting for all people when you really only care about your own race. 

Joshua Allen
Joshua Allen

First, I'm a Hispanic. So don't say that I'm only supporting my race. I grew up in a low-income white/hispanic family. Even when I was young, I thought affirmative action was wrong and I still do to this day. To tell me that I should get privileges just because I happen to be a certain race or skin color is discrimination pure and simple. No matter how one chooses to dress it up, white people are being discriminated against. How can we claim to a color blind society when race is used as a criterion? In addition, there are poor whites as well that have the same social problems as poor people of color. The problem is not skin color or race, it's economic. The problem is also family. If a family has no expectations for their children then how can our society try and push them to achieve  All that is happening is that those that are truly trying to make something of themselves are discriminated against because they are not from a poor black family.

Again Toure, despite how you try and dress it up, it is discrimination for race. Racial inequality or not, and affirmative action is not going to solve the problem. In fact it has not worked as many have not taken advantage of it. 

Christina K
Christina K

Its a white man's world and we're just living in it. White people keep pretending that this isn't the case. :D

Bill Pearlman
Bill Pearlman

We have black president now. That should spell the end of this experiment.

M_Vaughn
M_Vaughn

You are entitled to your opinion. But let me be clear and very straightforward.

You back peddled for the sake of credibilty at the end of this article. Thank you but I saw it regardless of your efforts to camouflage your statements.

Now segregation is gone, it has been for a long time now. That doesn't support your argument. You should have edited that out.

Secondly, this article is heavily targeted at whites and supported by black and hispanic references. You have forgotten a large chunk of ”America”. Thus, you misrepresented ”America” by leaving the other races out.

Lastly, America and the dream we all strive to achieve is written in the constitution. You can define the terms. But for the improvement of American life and educational standards, race is not a factor. America is a place for all races to succeed and build a life based off of your efforts not off of your race.

Last but not least, my racial background is compiled of Filipino, Italian, Spanish, Irish and my bloodline according to my last name is Welsh. You should remember all faces of America next time you write an article like this. Do not pick and choose.

M_Vaughn
M_Vaughn

You are entitled to your opinion. But let me be clear and very straightforward.

You back peddled for the sake of credibilty at the end of this article. Thank you but I saw it regardless of your efforts to camouflage your statements.

Now segregation is gone, it has been for a long time now. That doesn't support your argument. You should have edited that out.

Secondly, this article is heavily targeted at whites and supported by black and hispanic references. You have forgotten a large chunk of ”America”. Thus, you misrepresented ”America” by leaving the other races out.

Lastly, America and the dream we all strive to achieve is written in the constitution. You can define the terms. But for the improvement of American life and educational standards, race is not a factor. America is a place for all races to succeed and build a life based off of your efforts not off of your race.

Last but not least, my racial background is compiled of Filipino, Italian, Spanish, Irish and my bloodline according to my last name is Welsh. You should remember all faces of America next time you write an article like this. Do not pick and choose.

Heterotic
Heterotic

" The end of affirmative action would have profound implications for

higher education, leaving the U.S.’s top universities and graduate

schools whiter."

The profound implication is that the U.S. taxpayer would get more bang for the buck, actually educating more qualified students. If as a black one does not like that, study harder.

jmsramsey
jmsramsey

This is all plain nonsense!  No one should be admitted to a college or hired for a job on anything other than ability!  This weakens the college or corporation which in turn weakens the country.

ranger99
ranger99

"The places I studied and worked did not have a quota system but had an

understanding that a diverse body is inherently better than a monolithic

one for all involved."

Exactly why is a "diverse student body" such a beneficial thing?  I've never seen any real data supporting that theory. 

Besides, even within universities with diverse student populations, statistics show that people overwhelmingly "self-segregate" and have very little social interaction with those of races other than their own anyway.

Where exactly is this mythic benefit coming from?

romamar
romamar

Ms Fisher blaming affirmative action for not getting into UT is attention grabbing but probably not the only reason she didn't make the cut.  Maybe if she paid out of state tuition she'd get in. Universities are getting harder and harder to get into.  The Univ of Washington recently increased the # of out state/ international students admitted because they pay 3 times more tuition. If you were an in-state student, You could be valediction  class president and a 4.0 student and still not get into UW.

http://o.seattletimes.nwsource...

Steven Lemon
Steven Lemon

Justice Kagan recused herself because she "worked on the case as solicitor general"???

She also worked on the Obamacare law as solicitor general but she didn't chicken out on that one.

DG41
DG41

Any way you look at it, affirmative action is racist, discriminatory, and unethical. Is this author, Toure, saying that blacks aren't intelligent or industrious enough to compete with other races without giving them an edge or special consideration. That is B.S. My black friends and co-workers are extremely intelligent and skilled to compete equally with anyone. They would probably come out on top. To tell them them otherwise would be offensive. I agree with Dawn Berkley that part of the problem is black culture. Many blacks do not put education at the top of their lists. In the US, we have many, many young black men, some still in their teens, who have multiple babymamas. These young men have no way to support themselves much less their children. Some even appear to idolize the local thugs in their community. The same goes for the young women; they may have multiple children and each one has a different father. Entitlement programs make it easy to remain uneducated and unemployed.. 

scotty_sbh
scotty_sbh

chris matthews considered barack obama the "post-racial president." since race seems to rear it's ugly head even today in 2012 (oh so-and-so is racist!), let's prove chris matthews correct by shunning affirmative action.

garose
garose

Unfortunately, affirmative action has made me discriminate more. I got my first job in the early 60’s before civil rights. At that time you had to name a doctor for health insurance purposes. I was in my 20’s, I was going to live forever and never get sick so I didn’t bother looking for a doctor. After a couple months personnel (not HR) came and said I had to be in the insurance, I had to name a doctor or I would be fired (not terminated).

Now, I was on a short leash, I had to come up with a doctor and I didn’t know how. I was the smartest guy on earth (20’s remember?), my parents were idiots and none of my friends had any advice. Then I got the idea to find a black doctor.

I figured anybody that could put up with the discrimination, ostracization, grade pressure, etc. of medical school and still make it must be one hell of a doctor. I was right. The guy was a god!

Now, with affirmative action, things are different. The lowest level of qualified white applicants are eliminated to let in the top level of unqualified black applicants. This means that on average any white doctor is better than any black doctor. I know the few who would have made it before are still there but how do you tell which is which?

I am now in my 60’s and unfortunately I still have this opinion. Whenever I see a black person the first question that pops into my head is, “Are they really supposed to be here?” I’m sorry, I know it’s wrong but I can’t help myself.

I don’t like affirmative action because whenever I seek someone out whether it be a doctor, a lawyer or a ditch digger I try to find the cream of the crop, the best. Thanks to affirmative action I know the least qualified whites are already gone.

 

Nonaffiliated
Nonaffiliated

Toure doesn't share the Dream: 

- "I cannot be seen through a color blind lens and do not wish to be."

- "Pushing race into the shadows is not the answer."

Almost 50 years ago, when Dr. King gave his speech, any consideration of race carried with it a disadvantage for the non-whites.  As a result, the non-whites dreamed of color-blind decisions,  a society of justice and equality, where rewards were earned by a person's actions rather than the color of their skin.

At some point, the Dream was corrupted.  For people like Toure, equality and justice aren't good enough.  They want something more, based on the color of their skin rather than the content of their character.  

If the University of Texas wants to grant special consideration to the poor, or those who grow up in single-parent homes, or whatever, then I don't have a problem.  But, when there's a + or - strictly based on race...that's just as wrong now as it was in 1963.

Capricorn King
Capricorn King

Centuries of systematic, institutionalized racism require a systematic, institutionalized response. If you think race isn't a major determining factor (as this article and many others have pointed out) you're probably white.

We'll have reached critical mass when black achievement is no longer "black achievement"  and becomes "achievement."

bibleverse1
bibleverse1

We should not deny any student admission to a university based on their race. Institutions must do all possible to make their schools look like America without allowing under achievement. I don not advocate relaxing standards because of race that is a slap in the face to achievement . I think resources should be expended to get minority students to your school. They should recruit the best and brightest students from around the nation.

SenatorSting
SenatorSting

If your race is the key factor in your life, I pity you. You live in a country where freedom and success are available to any wish to partake. The only thing that affirmative action affirms is racism. Unequal treatment based on skin color. Better hurry up Toure. Your occupation is invested in the non-renewable resource of white guilt, and you're running out quickly.

LogicalPosition
LogicalPosition

White privilege...by White privilege you mean White Parents CARE about their kids enough to see that those kids get that education, food in their bellies, a roof over their heads, a moral upbringing, a J O B, Religion, etc?

Life is about CHOICES and BEHAVIORS, and quite honestly outside a handful of Blacks, that entire race is a disaster. Europeans developing Africa, found the "natives" to be no more than SAVAGES! Sadly "those ppl" were brought to America where the vast majority of them carried on those savage, tribal ways. Even today we see evidence of African Culture in the prisons and ghettos of America. They refused to assimilate!(unless breeding with white women constitutes assimilation)

Out of wedlock birth rates of Blacks...over 70%!

HS Dropout rates....50-80%!

Crime...50% of black males have spent time in jails/prisons!

IQ rates significantly below that of Whites and Asians, SAT scores ditto!

If white privilege is to blame for the failings of Blacks in YOUR MIND, this speaks VOLUMES about the 47% you belong to.

B_Mack_123
B_Mack_123

Is is discrimination when there are race quotas as to enrollment in a school? If you are qualified then you should be able to enroll. It should not depend on the color of your skin, but by the qualifications of the individual. I have friends who are A+ students who cannot enroll in a certain program because of the color of their skin (white). Is this not a form of discrimination? Affirmative action was an important step in discrimination when it was needed, but, in my opinion, this is no longer needed. Also, I didn't care for the quote "The end of affirmative action would have profound implications for higher education, leaving the nation's top universities and graduate schools whiter." Really?

Heterotic
Heterotic

The only rationale for continuing AA is the utter lack of improvement academically by blacks and latinos. Guess what, look in the mirror, that is on those communities. The U.S. has spent over a trillion dollars on the black communities over a 50 year period with little to show for it. Until they change themselves continuing to disadvantage Asian and White students for their benefits is criminal.

Sardonic_Soul
Sardonic_Soul

Affirmative action gave us President Obama.   Thanks a lot!!  What this country DOESN'T need is another officer who "Didn't Build That" degree but rather was given a pass because he's a cool sexy affirmative action "pass" kind of  guy.   We need people who DID build that and CAN build our country what EVER their color.  Enough of the "POOR ME!"   If a black guy has to work 10 times harder to achieve top position, then DAMN I want that guy running MY country because he's going to be 10 times better than anyone else.   The problem with Affirmative Action is it produces weak products, who do a "pass" kind of job.  After 45 months Obama's achieved his starting place.  Woo HOO!  I think I'll "Pass" on affirmative action.

Chris Larson
Chris Larson

Affirmative action is an outdated mandate. The force of moral thought via government institutions and natural liberalization of higher learning campuses have created universities that are blind to race. If you have proven yourself to be a brilliant student and the university feels that you can forward their goals, you will get in. People forget that universities are as self-interested as individuals. A university will forget all about your race, religion, financial bracket and/or sexual orientation if finds what you can contribute as valuable. 

rsynovec
rsynovec

Pick and choose one, are you equal or not. AA is not needed if black America starts taking education serious themselves. We can't lower the standards when black America does not raise theirs. Shameful.

kawliga
kawliga

As long as any group of people is provided special treatment in any way to open any doors it is next to impossible to phrase out that special treatment.  There will always be a reason to keep it and that special group of people will always say "We're not there yet."  Everybody wants to be treated as an equal but they need special treatment to get there.

Dawn Berkley
Dawn Berkley

The Black unemployment rate is related to black culture more than anything, where getting an education is considered "acting white", and is shunned by the community. Low marriage rates and uneducated children having children compounds the problem.

 Add to that the fact that most blacks (including the author) see all solutions to their plight being external, mostly from the government (democrats), and you have a recipe for disaster that is being played out daily in America. 

Besides all of that, Affirmative Action is pure racism. Time to end this abomination and for blacks to start getting their OWN damn house in order instead of  constantly blaming everyone else for their lack of initiative.

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@punia101 none is more deserving than other as long as the criteria is the same.  With AA, it's not. You can't have an equal society while giving race preference to one group (no matter it's white, black, hispanic, or asian) over another.  

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@punia101

Nice pretending to be an Asian speaking for black and Hispanic students.  

Affirmative Action (AA) was first created to give a leg up to under-represented minority to compensate for past racism and centuries of slavery. It makes perfect sense during the civil rights movement.

However, in a multicutural and multiethnical world where the U.S. is increasingly becoming majority minority state (e.g. California) and has a current sitting president who is a minority, proponents of AA find it is a very weak argument to convince the public that, for instance, black and latino students with less academic credentials continuously need some extra leg up in this century to get into the same colleges as white and asian students.  

So now the argument has been changed to "diversity" - because we, as we were told, benefit from so-called diversity, colleges still should admit black and latino students with less academic credentials than white and asian peers using racial preferences.  Affirmative action must be in place to achieve the goal of diversity.  Does this argument hold?  

Please visit https://www.facebook.com/AgainstAA and find out 

IllidanStormragge
IllidanStormragge

@punia101In California there are cases where Asians with SAT scores five HUNDRED points higher are rejected to admit black students. How in the world does that mean he is as qualified? What world are you living in? I know SAT scores aren't the best predictor but how much work do you think goes into a score with points in the hundred differences? Why even get educated at all if you are guaranteed a spot based on your skin color? It's ridiculous, unfair, and inefficient. It is self-entitlement at its best. It is also inherently racist and hypocritical. We obviously don't live in a post-racial society. And what's with this fallacy that whites have it so disproportionately well. What racial group has to pay most of the taxes while other groups are disp. on welfare? Whites. What racial group has to live with disp. higher violent crime rates towards them? Whites. What group has the highest suicide rates? Whites. What group has a declining population? Only whites. When will they get special treatment to address these issues? There will be a wakeup call in this country on race one day. I only hope whites get special treatment when they become a minority in the future (but we all know they probably won't).

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@dbnupefromdp Asian Americans are foreign students?  I wonder which country your ancestors are from....because as far as I know there was only native americans in this land. 

Heterotic
Heterotic

Maybe blacks ought to try to open a book once in a while and study. The greatest correlation with getting a good education is good parenting. The most dis-functional families are the black ones.

SenatorSting
SenatorSting

America has subsidized the bastardization of America's children for far too long to the detriment of the country and society. The only ones benefitting from the arrangement are democrat politicians.

SlimJames
SlimJames

 Okay, you're a bit off-base on a few points.

First of all, our community as a whole does not shun education. While the anti-intellectual attitudes you describe DO exist, it's largely confined to the roughly 1/4 of our population that lives in poverty, and even there, the stigma against achievement isn't nearly as large as you seem to believe.

Second,  Dawn, the fact that you can say most blacks see all solutions to our problems as being external really makes me wonder if you've ever actually had a conversation with a black person. (That may come off as condescending, I'm seriously wondering about that). Having spent my entire life as a black person, around other black people of varying socioeconomic levels, I can count on one hand how many times I've heard somebody say "the government should solve this for us". In fact, I contend that the prevailing reality in our community is that

you can't count on the government for anything because "They" don't care

about us.

Growing up I was made to understand that "We're all we got"; Black people are the only ones that care about black people, so of course we're going to try to defend one of the few advantages (even though it's not that much of an advantage) that we have.

Now, having said all that, I will state that affirmative action based on race violates my own ideas of fairness.    

punia101
punia101

I get where you are coming from with your arguments, but you have to understand that most of this stuff that you are saying is propaganda and hyperbole. First of all, its only a select few of the colleges and universities doing it, second of all, there are plenty of top universities not doing it, third of all, the college you go to does not determine your future career, and finally, only the AA kids who have potential are accepted into this elite group of college Freshmen, not just any minority student of the street as you make it seem like. 

punia101
punia101

@AsianAmerican

"Punia" should be more than enough of a hint towards my Asian heritage.

I, personally, would prefer more economic diversity rather than racial diversity in the college admissions process, but since we really haven't reached racial equality, economic diversity is harder to enact. The fact remains that minority students, primarily of Black/Latino/ or Indian American descent, because of the racial inequality, are often not given the same opportunities as others. Just look at the example of how a black lady changed pretended to be a white had way more job offers, (Source : http://www.techyville.com/2012/11/news/unemployed-black-woman-pretends-to-be-white-job-offers-suddenly-skyrocket/ ) which was my whole argument about us not living in a post-racist society. We have to understand that AA usually only has an effect on the very tippy - top school,  who, could replace their entire current class with the other students they were picked over and we would not notice a difference in the school's performance. Diversity is important to a school and whether you choose to believe it or not, these AA-admits are not negatively bringing down a school, often times they are raising it up. Asians are already over represented in the typical incoming freshman class in a school, and if an Asian student gets rejected from one of the top schools that rely on AA, chances are, if she had the score's and ECs, she would be able to get into another top school. There is no way to completely eliminate race from college admissions, and its impractical to think that AA will ever die out until economic equality is restored between the different ethnic groups in America, which might be a Utopian thought to consider, but a necessary one.

IllianStormragge, if you don't supply a source for some of your "facts," I'm not going to believe you.

DMJo
DMJo

 Black people are not the only ones who care about black people, even during segregation.

I am a white middle class woman and I care very much about everyone no matter what race they are.  As far as I am concerned, we are all people and our race is the human race.

Heterotic
Heterotic

 You are off base. Blacks drop out of High School in the U.S. at a ~45% rate, substantially higher than 1/4. As far as blacks expecting the government to provide solutions, their consistent calls for AA is a direct reflection of that.

punia101
punia101

@AsianAmerican

I was just saying that you are exaggerating what is going on in the admissions process. Not just any minority student off the streets gets admitted by these universities, only those who show potential and drive are admitted. You make it sound like these students do not have to do anything to get admitted, but often times they show more dedication and perseverance than the students they were admitted over. Race is only one small aspect, and yet, you are blowing it up to be something way bigger than it really is. How do you purpose eliminating race in anything? Name is way too big of an indicator. You have to realize that it is mostly character. Dis-advantaged minorities have to go through a lot more struggle in their lives than privileged Asians or Whites. 


AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@punia101 equal protection and fairness are propaganda?  It's the constitution of the U.S.A. Treating people differently based on race is wrong. Why are you supporting it? 

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King Jr.

So why American "elite" colleges say NO to the idealism of MLK? Why some colleges and universities still continuously use race instead of one's character to judge an applicant? 

What you are saying just doesn't make any sense. 

punia101
punia101

@AsianAmerican  

Right, I know I don't speak for the entire Asian race and I know where you are coming from and I understand your beliefs. Hopefully there will be a day where there isn't inequality between races so AA wouldn't be needed. 

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@punia101 I don't want to make a judgment on what you want to sacrifice. But I won't.  And you don't speak for the race of Asian.  I will fight for my rights and my kids' rights to get a fair and equal footing in this country!!! 

punia101
punia101

@AsianAmerican 

I understand that I have to, probably, perform a little bit better for the college admissions process, but its a sacrifice I am willing to make because I know my future career would not be affected by this as much. Besides, there are plenty high performing non AA schools such as University of California at Berkeley, UCLA, other public flagships, and CalTech. I also believe that you have employed some hyperbole in your last post because I have done research on the Chinese - Japanese - Korean cultures and know that they are very closely related. Besides, name is also a distinctive factor, I'm pretty sure that they would be able to distinguish between "Raj Kumar" and "Christine Wang."

AsianAmerican
AsianAmerican

@punia101, do you know that Indian students are categorized under Asian in the current college admission application? Yes, it shows how ridiculous the system is!  Indian, along with Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese, etc. etc. have one category - Asian!  In elite college admission, these groups while have very distinct culture, ethnicity, religion, even race somehow are treated as one category!  Wake up, my friend.  You are already discriminated against and competing with other "Asians" if you are a college bound student.  

Heterotic
Heterotic

SlimJames   If you are OK with screwing a white guy then blacks should not complain when they get screwed; that does not work. Studies have shown that a disproportionate percentage of students enrolled under AA drop out because they cannot compete. I am in favor of Headstart, looking at individual schools, etc., but if one thinks that after 12 years of poor schooling, poor parenting, poor or unsafe communities one is going to compete with motivated white and Asian students from better  functioning families (on the average) one is not being realistic.

SlimJames
SlimJames

Okay, I think I see where we're missing each other. The NCES, who published the report I referenced, defines the status dropout rate as "the percentage of 16- through

24-year-olds who are not enrolled in school and have not earned a high

school credential". The figures you cited might indeed be valid under a different research method, so, y'know...my bad.

While I mentioned in an earlier post that I don't really like AA because "preferential treatment" for lower standards doesn't strike me as logical, I'm honest enough to admit that I'd willfully screw over a white guy I didn't know in order to get a place in a good school. I'd venture to say that many people of color feel this way. 

You say that AA isn't right, and to an extent I agree. But, in my opinion, this issue isn't about right or wrong or fairness. It's about reality; we don't believe that we live in a colorblind society that judge us purely upon our character and the merits of our achievements. The most successful amongst my community still repeat the mantra to the youth that we have to be twice as good at what we do in order to get half the respect of our white counterparts. Logic and objective thinking, on both sides, left this issue a LONG time ago.    

Heterotic
Heterotic

 SlimJames    The 45% number is based on several reports published here on CNN. Washington Post published an article in 2012 that it was 35% for blacks. There are several reports that the overall rates are improving but primarily due to improvements buy latinos. Regardless, these are sad numbers. At least you admit that there is support for AA because it benefits blacks. That does not make it right, it is still discriminatory. Finally, giving preferential treatment after 12 years of lesser education and parenting is hardly logical.

SlimJames
SlimJames

 45%? Really?

That's news to me because according to a 2009 study published by the National Center for Educational Statistics, around 4.8% of Blacks between the ages of 15 and 24 dropped out of High School. Granted, that's still twice the rate for white students, but it is substantially lower than the number you threw out.

As for your contention that we expect government to provide solutions, well...there's nothing that I can really say for that. Given my life experiences and contact with others in my community, I don't believe that to be the case. You apparently believe something different; it's whatever.

I would also argue, however, that minority support for AA is not so much about wanting big gov to solve our problems, but more about lobbying to protect an institution that serves our interests. In that sense, we're no different than, say, an NRA lobby that's against reinstatement of the federal assault weapons ban.