Just How Bad Off Are Law School Graduates?

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Arizona State University’s law school is attacking head on the growing problem of law school graduates — who are in the fifth year of a near-depression-level job market — not being able to find work. It plans to open its own nonprofit law firm, as the New York Times recently reported, with the goal of keeping 30 recent graduates off the unemployment rolls. Law schools have also been offering public interest fellowships to help recent graduates get a foothold in the legal market — and creating incubators to train solo practitioners.

But all of this law-school work-making is raising some fundamental questions about whether there are broader forces at work that are permanently altering the legal profession.

It may seem far off today, but it was not long ago that the good times were rolling for lawyers. In 2007, 91.2% of law school graduates got jobs and salaries were soaring. After the 2008 meltdown, the employment rate was far lower — and the quality of jobs a lot worse. In 2009, just 65.4% of law school graduates got jobs for which they needed to pass the bar.

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A grim sport has emerged of exchanging stories about just how bad things are. Many lawyers are stuck doing tedious, document-intensive contract work for as little as $25 an hour — not the worst job in the world, certainly, but not what many of them envisioned when they spent three years of their lives and $150,000 to get a law degree.

And there are plenty of worse jobs.  “Above the Law,” a website that follows the grim legal market closely, reported one listing on Boston College Law School’s job site that offered an annual salary of just $10,000 which “Above the Law” insisted the firm “had to have known” was “below minimum wage.”

And it gets worse still. There are a surprising number of job postings for lawyers that offer no salary at all, including government law jobs. That raises the question — as one headline put it — “Would You Work as a Federal Prosecutor — For Free?”

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Being unemployed — or working at minimum wage — is rough in the best of circumstances. But it is especially crippling for students who get out of school with six-figure debts that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. The average debt load for law school graduates is now over $100,000 — and at some schools, it tops $150,000.

There are two views about the current bad times in the legal profession. One holds that it is a temporary setback, caused by the Great Recession, and that when the economy comes back, so will demand for lawyers. In fact, there have been some modest signs of an upturn in the legal job market.

The more pessimistic view is that the market will never recover: that as a result of globalization, it has become easier for law firms and companies to outsource legal assignments to places like India, where foreign lawyers will work for a fraction of what an American lawyer would earn. There are also new technologies that are putting lawyers out of work — including software that can do tedious document-review projects that used to require an actual human.

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And there is a third source of downward pressure: as in many industries, corporations and other legal clients are increasingly intent with doing more with less. They are insisting on fewer billable hours, and smaller bills, and that translates into fewer, and lower-paid, lawyers.

Prospective law students are already responding to the dismal job market. Applications to law school are expected to hit a 30-year low this year — down as much as 38% from 2010. Some law schools have responded by shrinking their class sizes, and there have been predictions that in the not-too-distant future some lower-ranked law schools might have to close entirely. Perhaps the job market will recover and lawyers will make up the ground they lost, but if the slide continues the result will be a significantly scaled-down profession. Because the one law even lawyers cannot get around is supply and demand.

87 comments
MissPriss1948
MissPriss1948

There are several disgraceful factors at work here:   First, it seems that every little hamlet has to have a law school.  In my state, which  has a comparatively small population, there are 3 law schools, each of them churning out new lawyers like the Mint turns out dollar bills. 

 Second, almost everyone has to take out student loans, because the cost of law school has become astronomical. Thirty-plus years ago, my state law school tuition was less than $1000 per year.  I took out student loans, and worked side jobs on the sly to pay my rent.  

The biggest disgrace, however, is the interest rate that young lawyers today find themselves paying on their student loans.  My law school loans back when were at 1-1/2%  and 3%, .  My understanding is that student loan interest rates are set by Congress, presumably with the able assistance of the BigBanks.   Today's interest rates are obscene, and create a trap from which many recently-graduated lawyers cannot free themselves.  Of course, we've all learned by now that Congress is the friend of the Big Banks, the NRA, and other well-heeled interests, and no longer functions as the friend of this country and its citizens. Don't forget to vote.

RLJ84,  I can certainly hear your distress and pain.  Find a place where you can do some kind of work-- perhaps a district attorney's office, a legal aid office, or a state agency.  You won't have a huge salary, but you'll have a paycheck coming in, and health insurance; and you'll learn how to practice law.  With two or three years of work under your belt you'll be in a far better position to get a better job, if you still want to,  or to start a practice.  If you start a practice, consider doing so in a smaller city, where your quality work and integrity will bring you clients and a local reputation long before you could do that in a big city. Share office space with another attorney to keep your overhead down.  Trust me on this;  it still works. Do a good job for your clients,.  Decline to take the bad clients, those who give you an uneasy feeling when you first  talk to them.  They  won't pay your bills, and will file complaints against you with the bar association.

And good luck to you.

RLJ84
RLJ84

I'm $200,000 in debt and make $30,000. I'm 28, live at home with my parents, and fight depression. I will likely never be able to own a home or have a family. I can't afford a car. I got a 168 on my LSAT and went to a law school that usually ranks in the #15-18 range. I worked hard in law school and made "ok" grades. I share my story because I don't think competent, bright individuals for whom things have always worked out believe that law school can similarly destroy their lives. I'm here to warn you. Law school destroys the lives of many smart people. If I had spent three years drinking, partying, doing drugs, and generally irresponsible, my life would be immeasurably improved compared with how law school has irretrievably destroyed and corrupted my happiness, my future, and my life.

I'm not here to blame anyone else. It was my own fault. I would like others who follow in my footsteps to be aware of my story. I would amputate a limb if it meant I could return my law degree and discharge my loans.

Here are the rules of engagement regarding law school:

ONLY go to law school if:

a. You were accepted into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford; or

b. You received a full scholarship.

If your scholarship is contingent upon grades and you don't retain your scholarship after 1L year, drop out immediately. If you are not in the top 10% of your class, a lifetime of misery and financial and emotional devastation awaits.

Law schools lie about their employment statistics. They are businesses and you, the prospective student, are the customer. The ONLY thing that concerns them is (1) your signature on the promissory note for student loans; and (2) your LSAT/GPA so the school can retain its ranking in order to lure in more students to sign promissory notes. Nothing - and I truly mean nothing - else matters. The professors are paid strong six-figure salaries for low amounts of work and have the luxury of teaching the same material each year. They want to keep their jobs, as do the administrators. 

Make no mistake - the law school industry feels threatened by the amount of negative information on the Internet, but reality eventually seeps slowly into the public consciousness. When you bilk thousands of people out of millions of dollars, eventually the truth will be known.

Law school has utterly destroyed my life. If you are not in the top 10% of your class (yes, even at a "good" or T14 school), then the jobs that are available to you will range in salary from $20,000 to $40,000 and you will owe $150,000 to $200,000 in student debt. You will spend the entirety of your life financing the lifestyle of bank executives and law school staff and professors. Many times, you will have to begin as an unpaid intern before you are even offered a small (and I mean extremely small) stipend. I had to begin as an unpaid intern.

Law school does not teach you how to be a lawyer. Law school graduates do not know how to draft motions, complaints, contracts, or wills. Law graduates have to teach themselves these schools. Clients are extremely hard to get - especially those that actually pay (and if you're lucky, they pay on time without demanding a substantial discount). You can't just hang a shingle and expect the money to roll in.

Law schools leave a trail of misery, emotional and financial devastation, bitterness, and regret. I wish I had joined the army. I wish I had studied a trade. I wish I had just stuck with my pre-law school office job. But no, I thought I was smarter. I thought I could be the exception. Just remember that EVERYONE going to the law school you attend will be just as bright and just as capable and yet only 10% of those students will obtain jobs that will allow them to remain independent.

If you want to destroy your life, if you want suicide-level anxiety and stress, if you want to enter a career where an extremely small percentage of those working in the field make a good living (and yet ALL lawyers work extremely hard - much harder than others who make larger salaries in less stressful careers), if you want your life to be infused with jerks and psychopaths who are attracted to being lawyers, if you want to be screamed at and yelled at by alcoholic lawyers, if you want to never have the financial wherewithal to afford an apartment or a car, if you want to move in with your parents, if you want to remain single indefinitely, if you want to feel shame and regret for the entirety of your adult life, if you want to spend your life doing boring mind-numbing adversarial work, if you want to really (and I mean really, no theoretically) experience the feeling of wishing you were dead or never born, then by all means go to law school. 

jaredrogers763
jaredrogers763

Hi RLJ84 - I sympathize with your story. I am debating the law school evening route but I already have a full time day job. I've heard the horror stories and am strongly considering pursuing another path. I was accepted at a T20 with a small scholarship and a lower ranked school with siginificantly more scholarship money.

However, there are a lot of professions which require any type of graduate degree and pay more than $30k, especially regulatory analyst/policy careers with the government. I am precluded from applying to most of those soely because I only hold an undergraduate degree. Maybe you should seek out a government career or a position in finance. Many brokerage firms pay more than $30k (Fidelity, Charles Schwab, etc.), will sponsor brokerage licenses (Series 7 and 63) and once you have those, many people move on to larger asset managers. Bottom line, there are a lot of professions which pay well which you are stringly qualified for. Don't get depressed :) 

NedRavine
NedRavine like.author.displayName 1 Like

the government needs to change the laws and let students get rid of these obscene $100,000 student loans in bankruptcy!  there's no way I can pay back all these loans working for chump change doing legal work

flattorney
flattorney

Highly recommend not going to law school if you haven't started.  If you have started and are less than $30,000 in debt, cut your losses before it is too late.  Most of my colleagues have well over $100,000 in student loan debt including myself. The government isn't doing much for student loan forgiveness or fairness.  They continue to ignore Petitions with as much as 1,000,000 plus signatures.   Most attorneys I know with three years experience are making under or around $50,000 a year if they are lucky.  Many took jobs at the Public Defender's office or State Attorney's office paying approximately $38,000 a year.  Keep in mind this is with over $100,000 in Student loans with consolidated loan interest at 7.3%.  After making $15,000 in payments in three years my student loan which was at $120,000 is now reaching $130,000 because the payments aren't enough to cover even the interest.  Many of the private small firms locally aren't even giving benefits to their associates and paying them a low salary.  


The practice of law which is something that few sincerely enjoy doing cannot even be enjoyed now due to Student Loans and low paying jobs without benefits.  Most days I love practicing laws but not a day goes by I regret going to law school because of my student loans and low salary after seven years of college and passing a State Bar Exam.  Many of my non law school friends make more money, have better benefits and don't have student loans.  The days of being a new lawyer and making it big are a dream of the past.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky like.author.displayName 1 Like

as a starter, shut down the bottom 30 law schools

PaulDrake
PaulDrake

If law school grads only knew that they could make a whole lot more money being criminal defense investigators they'd stop engaging in this kind of self-loathing and fear-mongering.  As a PI in the defense world you can expect to make 3 or 4 times the beginning wage of a new lawyer. What's more-- many young attorneys would benefit from spending time at the crime scene than sitting in a law library looking up case law.  PI's know that finding key witnesses is what the successful trial outcome often hinges on anyway.  Yes, get your law degree, but if you can't find work as Perry Mason, follow your nose--Paul Drake is hiring and he's paying a whole lot more money. 

alankwellsmsmba
alankwellsmsmba

Poor little  lizards  The law is largely a  scam invented, designed and practiced for the benefit of insiders, not clients.  It's about money - and nothing else.  If there were those too starry eyed to see that, they will suffer like any other fool such as those who graduated in "theatre arts."  Cavet Emptor.  Yeah, although I'm an MBA by training, I had a little law too.  Oh, and it is my decided opinion that MBAs and computer scientists can replace most law functions, as they have with tax returns.  Now getting lawyers to write comprehensible codes to interpret, well that's a different kettle of lizards. People hate lawyers for a reason.  The most overrated "profession" ever created.

JLiberty
JLiberty

@alankwellsmsmba I don't understand people like you. The people being crushed by this are kids in their 20's who are trying to push themselves to accomplish, what they thought, was a meaningful achievement that would benefit themselves and their families. Everyone I went to school with just wanted to have a career that was engaging and make enough money to get by. Acting like students who went to law school should have known better and deserve their fate is ludicrous. Just 5 years ago the employment rate was 91%, it's probably half of that now depending on what sources you look at. Is the profession bloated? Absolutely. However, I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of empathy for graduates in their 20's who have had nothing to do with the toxic state of the profession and you saying that they somehow deserve to be saddled with the burdens of all it's shortcomings for the rest of their lives.

jellopeople
jellopeople

The ironic savior could be legalzoom.com.  They and other digital companies are partnering with attorneys to provide legal services to the under-served middle-income market - with benefits that are now expected from service industries, but those which attorneys have not been typically known for:  customer service, flat rates, transparency, using technology and data to not have to charge you for research on something that has been done a million times before, and very importantly, CALLING BACK IN A TIMELY MANNER.  With demand rising from the market previously shut out from legal services, supply can meet those people at a cost that's driven by competitive market dynamics, not oligopolies.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

First -- close down the bottom 30 ranked law schools.

Leimomi
Leimomi

The ASU "solution" to the crisis of unemployed law school graduates is laughable.

First, most of the folks teaching in law schools have NO practical experience.  They went straight through on the academic express:  undergrad, law school, clerkship, maybe two or three years at a firm, then into teaching.  They've got absolutely NOTHING that they can impart to new law school grads.  The "old" model of a recent grad joining a firm [or government agency] and learning by doing, being mentored & guided by someone more experienced, has been cast aside because it doesn't make money for the firm, and because clients balk at paying for "unexperienced talent."

Second, well gee, how LUCKY for those who can't afford "real" legal services, [particularly now that Legal Aid has been decimated] to be served by some know-nothing recent grads and their equally out-to-lunch "teachers" from the law school faculty.

The only folks this "solution" benefits are the law schools: it helps them hide the fact that they're producing TWICE as many graduates as there are jobs, and obscures the real unemployment figures by claiming those working at their make-work "law firms" are "employed."

Claudius_II
Claudius_II

Prospects for engineering and the STEM careers are just as, if not more, dismal.  Yet both political parties insist that we have to import 85,000 foreign engineers/ scientists PER YEAR.  Meanwhile thousands of US engineers & scientists can't find work at any price: even $25/hour.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

@Claudius_II Maybe the unemployed engineers need to update their skills and/or move to another area of the country.


Unemployed scientists should either go get their PhD or get certification to work in a technical job in hospitals or get an engineering job or learn how to do programming.

littlebear3
littlebear3 like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Leftcoastrocky

Anyone who has worked in a company that chooses the H1B visa foreign professionals over an

American understands a simple truth.

When someone is hired on a visa, they are not able to quit their job, or accept a better job. They must work for the employer that brought them in. It doesn't matter how long the hours, or how poorly they are treated, they must stay at the job.

As soon as they quit or are layed off, they have to return to their native country. That is a real issue if they have a family.

It isn't about lack of skill, or education, it is about business benefitting and being able to drive salaries down without worrying about retention. It is also about professionals coming from countries that pay for their citizens to pursue advanced education, so they enter the job market debt free.

The question we should be asking is why is it that someone with few economic resources from a poorer country has a better chance at getting an education than middle class Americans. And they enter the labor market without a huge debt load.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

@littlebear3 @Leftcoastrocky Their countries are paying for their education, which benefits our colleges and college communities.  If they are pursuing a PhD in engineering and plan to work in the U.S. we all benefit.  We have far too few Engineering PhDs  (and probably too many JDs and MBAs).  Frequently they will stay and start businesses, hiring US citizens.

1neekehurley
1neekehurley

A wise one once said. Challenge the schools, the state education department whomever is responsible for this hefty price tag!

murphyg2013
murphyg2013 like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Obviously, this garbage was written by a law professor.  I can tell by the way it involves nothing original and is merely a summary of what you find if you did a 5 minute google search of 'law school scams.' 

The reason law school grads can't start their own practice upon graduation and can't find jobs is that law schools don't teach law.  When you accuse them of this, they don't deny it. They say: we teach student to think like lawyers.  But even that is not true.  Law schools are playgrounds for law school professors.  Students are basically in the way.  Students are the 6 to 9 hours per week of inconvenience that law school professors must put up with so they can spend their lives indulging in six-figure salaried hobbies.

One good example is the author of this garbage.  Instead of spending his time learning about law, or learning about how to be a better teacher or becoming an expert in the things he teaches (media law and privacy law) he fiddles about writing biographies of the people who were in FDR's cabinet in the 1930's.

AngelaDoddHarless
AngelaDoddHarless like.author.displayName 1 Like

If this is the case then why are they trying to shorten law school to 2 years so that there will be more graduates? It sounds like there are too many lawyers already.

AD
AD

Its not just law or mba. This is match week for medical doctors trying to find medical residencies. And there are only about 24000 1st year positions and about 38000 applicants. This at a time when everybody is yelling about physician shortages. No wonder then that there are US citizen FMGs who passed USMLE board exams working in jobs that have nothing to do with medicine.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

@AD why doesn't the medical profession create more residencies especially for family/general practitioners?

jyladvik
jyladvik like.author.displayName 1 Like

@AD  Don't kid yourself. Someone working in  hands-on healthcare has no fear of life long unemployment.

doyamakai
doyamakai like.author.displayName 1 Like

I was surprised to read this article because just the same problems are rising in my country Japan, which create the low school system by learning from U.S. Many people in Japan regret changing its system and installing American style of law school.

I think there will be a lot of people who have bar degree but do jobs nothing related with law like elementary school teacher...

markrmulligan
markrmulligan

Major in a foreign language like German or Chinese as an undergraduate. Then when you later graduate from law school, you will not be disappointed if you made an effort to specialize in something like International Law. You might have to relocate for at least a while to a foreign country, but the adventure and broadening of horizons should make it worth your while.

_hardhatBetty
_hardhatBetty like.author.displayName 1 Like

not really trying to change the subject, but this situation clearly doesn't just pertain to law students, but architecture students as well.  Granted, an architecture degree doesn't cost $150k, there are a lot of "undocumented" costs, such as software, model making supplies and printing costs.  We're lucky to find jobs that pay $15 an hour drafting somewhere.  Time ought to write a whole series about the value (time AND money wise) of degrees vs. finding a job after graduation.  So many more industries could use the exposure of the struggle.

KamranKastle
KamranKastle like.author.displayName 1 Like

I think it is fair to assume that a lot of people are having a difficult time finding their ideal job...whether they have a great education or not.


vcgordon
vcgordon

“%s: Just how bad off are law school graduates? | %sbJC v%se%sred” interesting way to help

mrbomb13
mrbomb13

To add my perspective to the TIME Article:

I was starting my 3rd year of undergrad when the Great Recession of '07-'08 hit.  Studying History/Education, my goal was to be a History Teacher upon graduation in 2010.  Unfortunately, the recession took a gigantic meat axe to public education, and now over 300K teaching positions have been eliminated nationwide.

At the time, I could see the hardship coming, so I decided to apply for law school as a back-up plan.  Biggest mistake ever.  After attending the University of Baltimore (UB) during the Fall '10 semester, the realities of law school and eventual lawyering became clear to me.  The profession was not what I desired as a career, so I left.

After going the Business route (earning my MBA in December '12), I read story after story about the inflated job placement scandals at many law schools (including UB).  It was striking to think that we as students had been deceived by academic statisticians, who inflated the placement numbers.  I have real pity for my friends in law school (who graduate this year) and all others who are entering such a difficult job market.

catwomanbeyonce
catwomanbeyonce

@dingakaa These articles are passed around school like crazy. Not that bad. Economic downturn means everyone suffers. It's a crab bucket.

sixtymile
sixtymile

If we don't need all the lawyers who are graduating out there filing or defending lawsuits, how is this bad? Definitely, knowing the law and legal language and processes can be an asset in other more useful professions. Don't give up yet.

BorisIII
BorisIII

Seen this gradually grow in a lot of other fields.  Both that require education and ones that don't require education.  I'm sure this will start to happen in other educated fields also.  Like companies preferring to hire associate in computers not 4 year degrees in computers.

littlebear3
littlebear3

@BorisIII 

Businesses have come to realize that additional years in school do not necessarily make someone more qualified for a job. I've worked with professionals in all areas with advanced degrees, and those who have a couple years of college, but continue to improve their skills. There is ultimately no difference in job performance or productivity.

Bill Gates dropped out of college, as did many others who eventually went on to have huge successes.

NickieBrown
NickieBrown

%s %s %s %s I keep reading articles like this. ????? %s

MizzBerrie
MizzBerrie

@NickieBrown ME TOO! I'm praying there will be something I'll want to have a career doing with a law degree.

NickieBrown
NickieBrown

@MizzBerrie That's another reason I've been considered becoming a paralegal. 9-5 M-F and more job opportunities.

thekevinsmith
thekevinsmith

@NickieBrown Do it! once you graduate law school you won't get hired as a paralegal... 

Smart_Pebbles
Smart_Pebbles

Reply @TIME @adamscohen @TIMEIdea Before deciding whether to go, I spoke with countless successful attorneys and got their perspectives.