Viewpoint: The Limitations of Being ‘Spiritual but Not Religious’

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Do you like feeling good without having to act on your feeling? Boosting your self-esteem no matter your competence or behavior? Then I’ve got the religious program for you.

According to the latest Pew report, almost 1 in 5 Americans identify themselves as “spiritual but not religious.” In other words, they have some feeling, some intuition of something greater, but feel allergic to institutions. Yet as we approach Passover and Easter, it’s important to remember that it is institutions and not abstract feelings that tie a community together and lead to meaningful change.

(MORE: Empty Pews: Everyone Is Misreading the New Numbers of Religiously ‘Unaffiliated’)

All of us can understand institutional disenchantment. Institutions can be slow, plodding, dictatorial; they can both enable and shield wrongdoers. They frustrate our desires by asking us to submit to the will of others.

But institutions are also the only mechanism human beings know to perpetuate ideologies and actions. If books were enough, why have universities? If guns enough, why have a military? If self-governance enough, let’s get rid of Washington. The point is that if you want to do something lasting in this world, you will recall the wise words of French Catholic writer Charles Péguy: “Everything begins in mysticism and ends in politics.” Got a vision? Get a blueprint.

Spirituality is an emotion. Religion is an obligation. Spirituality soothes. Religion mobilizes. Spirituality is satisfied with itself. Religion is dissatisfied with the world. Religions create aid organizations; as Nicholas Kristof pointed out in a column in the New York Times two years ago: the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization is not Save the Children or Care, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian group.

(MORE: Have We Evolved to Be Religious?)

Aid organizations involve institutions as well, and bureaucracies, and — yes — committee meetings. There is something profoundly, well, spiritual about a committee meeting. It involves individuals trying together to sort out priorities, to listen and learn from one another, to make a difference. I have found too often that when people say, “I stay away from the synagogue — too much politics,” what they mean is that they did not get their way. Institutions enable but they also frustrate, as do families and every other organized sector of human life. If you want frictionless, do it alone.

To be spiritual but not religious confines your devotional life to feeling good. If we have learned one thing about human nature, however, it is that people’s internal sense of goodness does not always match their behavior. To know whether your actions are good, a window is a more effective tool than a mirror. Ask others. Be part of a community. In short, join. Being religious does not mean you have to agree with all the positions and practices of your own group; I don’t even hold with everything done in my own synagogue, and I’m the Rabbi. But it does mean testing yourself in the arena of others.

(MORE: Rabbi Wolpe: Why I’m a One-Issue Voter)

No one expects those without faith to obligate themselves to a religious community. But for one who has an intuition of something greater than ourselves to hold that this is a purely personal truth, that it demands no communal searching and struggle, no organization to realize its potential in this world, straddles the line between narcissistic and solipsistic. If the spirit moves you to goodness, that is wonderful. For too many, though, spirituality is a VIP card allowing them to breeze past all those wretched souls waiting in line or doing the work. Join in; together is harder, but together is better.

282 comments
moonrock1159
moonrock1159

It is written that G-d is spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth, not on this mountain or that mountain. It seems to me that there is something about institutional religious brand names, trademarks, or marks (whatever you want to call them) that is probably not very acceptable to G-d  

Cattle are branded and sheep are dipped. It seems to me that G-d's sheep understand the difference. To me it seems that organized religion (any of them) are only fan clubs of G-d, when compared to the true flock of G-d. (they are dipped in His Spirit). 

The devil himself believes in G-d, but it doesn't seem to have profited him very well.

AV
AV

Some distance between collective action, a shake of hand in the name of something unseen; and navel grazing; the middle term is somewhat hard to see between the lines of the printed story...  


scott52
scott52

All very funny.  It always amuses me to see 'christians' quoting the Jewish Torah.  (the first five books of the bible)

Seems like the premise is that if you don't perform 'good works' in the name of religion, then you're a narcissistic fool.

Most great religious traditions have a mystical, spiritual tradition.  Judaism the kabbalah; christianty the gnostics.

Only good thing is that now we don't have to worry too much about being crucified for actually promoting true spirituality.  Oh, those were the pharisees who did that.  They argued a lot about what 'correct' worship of God was.

MariaFuncke
MariaFuncke

You are right! Very nice article. Thank you.

kjbrown126
kjbrown126

Spirituality is NOT an emotion... It's a state of being.

Hadrewsky
Hadrewsky like.author.displayName 1 Like

Religion is a disease of the mind.... an ancient evolved group of memes of the mind.


The religious are literally sick... they are sick from a silly damn superstitious meme.

Judas_Goat
Judas_Goat

“I stay away from the synagogue — too much politics,” what they mean is that they did not get their way"

You're right. I left the Christian church because I did not get my way.  They wouldn't stop making the neighborhood poorer by taking the tithe money from the congregation and only reinvesting it in more church functions and the preacher's payroll, rather than the neighborhood and to get guns and drugs off the streets.  

ShamsAci
ShamsAci

Spiritualism seems leading towards individualism, whereas, regionalism leads to social and communal living. Hence, as per my observational experience, the latter (regionalism) leads humans more towards social living than spiritualism can do, while we know 'Man is social animal'. However spiritual living has its own benefit e.g. one can find peace of mind practicing it constantly but besides spiritual means of living if one is religious and joins various gatherings concerning to one's own religion, whatever it may be, one can live a balanced and moderate living happier, healthier and lengthier with peace of mind than he or she can do in any other way of living on earth.

   - A.R.Shams's Reflection - Press & Online Publications - Moral Messages for Humanity Worldwide...

 


ShamsAci
ShamsAci

Spiritualism seems leading towards individualism, whereas, regionalism leads to social and communal living. Hence, as per my observational experience, the latter (regionalism) leads humans more towards social living than spiritualism can do, while we know 'Man is social animal'. However spiritual living has its own benefit e.g. one can find peace of mind practicing it constantly but besides spiritual means of living if one is religious and joins various gatherings concerning to one's own religion, whatever it may be, one can live a balanced and moderate living happier, healthier and lengthier with peace of mind than he or she can do in any other way of living on earth.

   - A.R.Shams's Reflection - Press & Online Publications - Moral Messages for Humanity Worldwide.- http:www.arshamssreflection.blogspot.com

 

CameronBartholomew
CameronBartholomew

...Spoken like someone who has a 4000-year-old tradition to justufy.  And then he drops a Charles Peguy quote -- "Everything begins in mysticisim, and ends in politics."  Um... does this support his point?  Peguy was a Catholic who never took the sacraments.  Sounds like "spiritual not religious" to me... LOL

anonymous7
anonymous7 like.author.displayName 1 Like

Thanks for standing up for the truth Rabbi Wolpe.

Smiling1809
Smiling1809

@anonymous7 Truth? What truth. Show me on ounce factual, measurable truth in this article. There is none.

Snowleopard
Snowleopard like.author.displayName 1 Like

The bottom line is really this: GOD IS NOT RELIGIOUS, and néver will be!  People create religion while God is essentially looking for rélationship!  Did Jesus really want to create a new religion?  Man loves religion, so does the devil, in fact he has created a lot of it(!) - so he is not at all scared of religion, because a lot of the religion going around is really powerless to fundamentally change and transform people - only Gód Himself can do that.  We see “the spirit of religion and tradition” all around us, but does it really heal and transform the lives of people?  I am talking of lifeless and powerless religion, with only rules, rites and regulations.  Does it really bring us closer to God Himself?  Religion in terms of organization is certainly necessary, but what the Rabbi doesn’t fully understand is that many people don’t find anything substantial and worthwhile in organized religion anymore, because of how it is presented - its lifelessness and powerlessness to really be life-changing to them.  That is the fault of the churches and synagogues themselves!  And not of institutions per se.  Christ didn’t preach or promote religion, not at all.  His greatest enemies were the religious leaders of the day.  He preached the kingdom of God, and demonstrated it though healing the sick (physically and mentally/emotionally), setting the captives free of evil bondages, and restoring lives of people - making them whole.  But that is not what many/most? religious instructions practice today, they rather practice powerless religion with very little life-changing results.  Going year after year and just staying the same!  Also, what does religion help, if you can’t truly find assurance of salvation through it.  No amount of your own religious piety can take you to heaven - grace for salvation is fréély given by faith in Christ.  Many religions have truth, but not all truth is saving truth!

boomer_babe
boomer_babe

People are lonely, and they want like-minded friends. A religious organisation can give a nice, safe group to belong to. If you pick a group well, they reinforce what you currently believe, they don't start introducing uncomfortable new ideas, or disagree with you. Religious people are very good at appearing to have strong, "family" values. Yes, they are probably beating up their wife, or cheating on their taxes with the best of them, but you can be sure that it will be kept well hidden and you won't be forced to have to deal with it. There is a nice, kind boss in charge of the group, and you know who he is. None of this voting, or trying to work out what the group will do this week. Religious organisations are useful. That is why they are still around.

Strawberries
Strawberries

Interesting perspective. It actually helps me understand why people might choose to belong to a religion. Assuming they believed these thoughts are true. I still agree with the thought expressed in the movie Dogma.--It is better to have ideas than beliefs because no one ever killed over an idea but they've killed plenty over beliefs.

 I really don't get religion. Why would anyone want to believe what someone else tells them to believe? Why not explore the world on your own and come to your own conclusions? Why be forcefed by a bureaucracy when you could actually experience the universe's miracles first hand? 

Oh well, guess it works for some people. As long as they don't bother those of us who don't share their particular definition of "GOD'S LAWS." Sadly, they too often do--from trying to restrict personal choices that are different than theirs to trying to force feed their dogma down the throat of others to killing and bombing those who see the world differently. 

As a 12 year old child I saw the hypocrisy of my parents' religion. It was so obvious. I understand the rabbi likely believes what he said, but it does come across as rather righteous and arrogant. And I really do believe he doesn't see that.


sefa
sefa

Let the rabbi lives in his own fantasy world.

son_of_man
son_of_man like.author.displayName 1 Like

Discussions like this are incredibly tiresome.  Self-righteous blowhards on both sides make pronouncements about the unknown and unknowable as if they have inside information about how the universe works.  That is hubris and it only serves to piss Zeus off.  You really don't want to get him mad.

MollyFields
MollyFields like.author.displayName 1 Like

People are perfectly capable of serving the world without being tied to a church.  I do belong to a church, yet most of the volunteer work I have done in my life has been tied to secular organizations.  They were the ones who were doing the most good, and they were the ones willing to help everyone, not just the ones they thought deserved it.  Many religious groups do great work in the world, but you do not need to be part of a religious group to do great work.

SixSixSix
SixSixSix like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Nice. Institutions pay the good Rabbi's salary and keep him from having to get an honest job without the cover of theological authority. Did he mention that? The objection to organized religion is not just whether or not the organization may do more harm than good. It fundamentally lies in the rejection of a theology that is not credible in modern life experience. Rabbis, priests and ministers would rather call others lazy than face the fact what they are peddling is being outright rejected. You are on the wrong track, overall doing more harm than good with your abstract illusions and theological escapades. We aren't buying it when there are more direct experiences and challenging issues to tackle than your rule systems are reluctant to even admit.

McDowdy
McDowdy like.author.displayName 1 Like

Claims like:  "I have found too often that when people say, “I stay away from [a religious institution] — too much politics,” what they mean is that they did not get their way." only betray prejudicial ignorance and condescension. That kind of narrowminded & presumptive attitude is just one reason why I stay away from religious institutions. 


pilotrancher
pilotrancher like.author.displayName 1 Like

@McDowdy Your quickness to call the Rabbi's often true statement "... prejudicial ignorance and condescension" reflects the "narrow mindedness and presumptive attitude" you condemn. If you choose to stay away from religious institutions, that's your choice. How about choosing to respect those who believe in God, actively participate in religious institutions, and try to live up to their beliefs, even though they sometimes fail. 

The most intolerant of all religions these days is secular liberalism.

McDowdy
McDowdy like.author.displayName 1 Like

@pilotrancher @McDowdy The presumption of what you call "truth" is myopic, assumptive, and insulting to anybody with an IQ over 70. The claim implies an accusation of petty childishness that is inconsistent with the majority of intelligent people I know who've departed from religious institutions. The claim is reductionistic (i.e. people who stay away from religious institutions are petty children who are so immature that they only parley with social communities when they get their way). I'm sorry but anybody who believes that is delusional, trying merely to preserve their own blind faith. Ultimately, there are several dozen rational reasons why people avoid the petty bigotry of religion. Your inability to discern my criticism is just another reason why I stay away from religious institutions. 

SixSixSix
SixSixSix like.author.displayName 1 Like

@pilotrancher @McDowdy How may secular liberals have ever burned anyone at the stake? How many have led Jihads?How many have bombed churches of their rivals? How many have advocated invading other lands in unprovoked, unjustified wars of aggression, lied about it, and then said, oh never mind? How many have tried to hog the definition of marriage to themselves, stopped others from participating and then screamed "religious freedom" to discriminate further at will against those they don't like or want to have around? How many secular liberals have blocked overt religious pandering politicians from getting elected? How many secular liberals have inflicted their theological belief on all other Americans if they want to profess loyalty to the flag and the country for which its stands, despite that oath being written by a secular liberal in repulsion at religious coercion. What's wrong aren't you a patriot enough to swear against the existence of a theistic being in order to say that you are loyal American. What are you, a Papist Commie? How does that feel? Still wondering why people get angry at your vicious assaults on their right to participate in public life without being labelled as hostile to the country?

anonymous7
anonymous7

Your hostile and defensive comments have just reinforced pilotrancher's point. Well done.

Think_again
Think_again like.author.displayName 1 Like

The bottom line of the rather heated and angry comments showing up here is that spirituality is being rejected upon the basis of the many condemnations of religion — in particular the evils visited upon us by members of organized religion, as well as the specifics of many of the teachings of organized religion.

The validity of spirituality is a separate question from the consequences — and teachings — of organized religion. So it seems that there is indeed a point to distinguishing spirituality from religion or religiosity.

It was Ralph Waldo Emerson who coined the phrase "spiritual but not religious." And he had a point: the distinction is obviously as relevant today as it was in his time.

thewholetruth
thewholetruth

@Think_again  The problem with Ralph Waldo Emerson is that Spirituality without the Creator is as the Rabbi says in the article  "Your own feel good thing"

Moses (after receiving the Law from the Creator) made it clear that God has laws...and yes religious leaders can abuse the law, which is what Messiah Jesus taught 

Think_again
Think_again

@thewholetruth @Think_again

Who said Emerson did not have a Creator God? -- just not 'Creator' in the 'Old Testament'/Genesis sense. He took heat for his God seeming impersonal (i.e. not a deity); what was lacking in Emerson was expressed as experiential immediacy through Whitman and social conscience through Thoreau, as imperfect as those men might have been.

SixSixSix
SixSixSix like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth @Think_again The problem is that you believe such fairy stories and inflect bad intentions on others for doubting the obvious.

Think_again
Think_again

@SixSixSix @thewholetruth @Think_again

SixSixEtc. -- it's very hard to know who you're addressing this to, and hard to know what you're referring to or trying to say.

NeilRoth
NeilRoth

One line in the article is actually a much better description of religion than it is of being spiritual or moral (which the author seems to easily and often confuse one with the other.)

"If the spirit moves you to goodness, that is wonderful. For too many, though, spirituality is a VIP card allowing them to breeze past all those wretched souls waiting in line or doing the work."

HelenMajor
HelenMajor

This is basically a rehash of the "Works" vs "Faith" debate on living a holy life. All religions are composed of a blend of the two while Judaism, Buddhism, and Catholicism tend toward an emphasis on good works to carry you through hard times or times of doubt. I think that there is also an identification of what the good Rabbi calls "feel good" with blessing, grace or good karma as an outcome of good work. I realize this is drastic simplification. For example grace in Catholicism is granted by God and can't be earned where good Karma has to be earned at some time.

But the key truth here is that when we fail to submit to the combination of works and faith most often found in community by claiming an unfettered and solipsistic spirituality we have a grandiose view of our souls.

SixSixSix
SixSixSix

@HelenMajor The Rabbi can't get off the hook but Christians can and do. You don't have to be the slightest bit good in Christianity. It won't help you. No Kingdom for you. You must BELIEVE. Then you can do anything. You might be judged, big deal. You will be forgiven, other Christians will forgive you, and everyone else literally can go to hell. You think maybe there is a reason such a religion does not hold the deeper thinkers for long?

HelenMajor
HelenMajor

@SixSixSix @HelenMajor I don't really understand what about my post you are responding to. I go more for works than faith and I don't believe in hell-or if I do I generally prefer the people who will join me there.

HelenMajor
HelenMajor

If you object to 666 then reply to him. Not to me.

anonymous7
anonymous7

Your comments show an ultimate lack of understanding. Read the book of James in the New Testament of the Bible. James 2:14-24 says this

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called 'the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

This is from the Bible which you claim says Christians can do whatever they want and get away with it. Also, I have a hard time taking any arguments against Christianity seriously from someone who refers to himself by the title of the devil. Just saying.

HelenMajor
HelenMajor

@SixSixSix @HelenMajor Okay. I see the disconnect. I was commenting that there is a difference between the religious traditions that emphasize acts over belief.  In Christianity Catholicism is an example of an Acts based redemption plan. Calvinism relied on predestination with signatory revelation (such as wealth) that a person was one of God's elect.

Frankly, your comments strike me as dismissive of the complexity and challenges of organized religion. If so more power to you.  I am going to sign off and get ready for the first night of Passover. I have people coming to share it with me.


SixSixSix
SixSixSix

@HelenMajor @SixSixSix Read your Christian bible, listen to the bible thumpers on the radio, ask your minister. Good deeds are not enough. In orthodox Christian ever since the Emperor Constantine chartered it, you must BELIEVE. You will not get into the Kingdom of Heaven any other way. Watch Christian politicians sleaze out by "coming to Jesus". What secular politicians never forgiven by the same people. Read Revelations about where all the doubters go, the lake of eternal burning fire, and so on. I don't make this stuff up because I couldn't imagine it. Just as I could not imagine how horrible the God of the Old Testament/Torah behaves. If this is morality, give me the decency to sin against it. Better yet, let's do real morality and forget about that sin model all together. Spiritual transcends the nonsense of theology. Karma on the other hand is a moral accounting system that promises rewards over one and more life times. I see little evidence of this but at least it encourages behaving well as more than pointless. Still I see no reason for needing Karma to do right either. As Aurthor C Clarke said, the worst thing that organized religious did was worse than claiming to know what morality is and isn't, it claimed to have invented morality. That latter is patently false unless you think our ancestors were weirdly different than us and totally, irredeemingly depraved.

DrMIS
DrMIS

I do think that is is harder for individuals on their own to have major impact, but I strongly disagree with the notion that it takes religion for groups to do good. I also agree that this idea of being spiritual without being religious is a cop-out. Frankly I don't believe in a "higher power" god or whatever else you want to call some magical force that controls everything. Of course there are plenty of examples of religious organizations doing a lot to help individuals in need, but such aid usually comes with strings attached. Many, if not most of these organizations are acting in order to try to add to their ranks. Religion is more often than not used as an excuse for discrimination if not outright attacks. As someone raised a Jew, I remember all to well the attacks on me by the catholic kids around easter after they were exhorted by their priests. They would both call me jesus killer and gang up and beat on me as I walked home. That is what loving christianity brings.

I realized as a child how idiotic and fanciful the bible stories I was being told were. They were clearly at best allegorical, with no way any rational person could see them as representing truth. Still, the synagogue to which my family belonged did do good deeds for needy people in the community. The members did these things NOT because of some belief in god or because they believed it would bring them rewards in the afterlife. After all, Jews don't believe in this heaven and hell nonsense. The charity that they performed was partially because the stories they read told them it was the right thing to do, but more because they realized as human beings that it was the right thing to do to help other humans in need. If it were all based on the torah then why didn't they do all the other things in the torah, like stone women for adultery or force a widow to marry her late husband's brother? 

No, people do good things because they are culturally conditioned to support other people. Religion can be part of that conditioning, but it is not a necessary part. Such conditioning can happen outside of a religious context. What is more important than religion, is that there be some sense of community among people. This doesn't take belief in a deity, but that is the main vehicle by which many people in our society congregate. I think what we do need is to create more opportunities for individuals who don't believe in myths to work together as a community without invoking a mystical sky daddy to scare people into it.

carolanne
carolanne

Here are two interesting quotes from the Bible. 1Cor. 3:19,"The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God". Jer. 10:23 I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step". This last verse will seem to be offensive to many men.

Grandfather
Grandfather like.author.displayName 1 Like

@carolanne Over time, words change meanings; languages can be mistranslated; original meanings can be lost; and languages become obsolete. It seems to me that an all-knowing god would know better than to try to communicate with all human tribes using the written language. That sounds like the kind of dumb thing men would do.

carolanne
carolanne

@Grandfather @carolanne 

Are you aware that the languages were brought into existence at the Tower of Babel by Jehovah God.  Surely a God capable of changing languages is capable of preserving His Word for us today. Try the NWT translation. Matt. 19:26 says that "with God all things are possible".

carolanne
carolanne

@Grandfather @carolanne 

Do you realize that it was Jehovah God who brought all the languages into existence at the tower of Babel?

It was not a fable or allegory.

carolanne
carolanne

@Grandfather @carolanne 

I learned a long time ago that there are two ways we can look at life, from the human standpoint or from the creator, Jehovah God's standpoint (found in His word).  Prov. 3;5,6 says "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart (not necessarily in what your minister says) and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight".

I firmly believe that the Creator of the universe is capable of preserving a Bible translation in our day that is accurate. Try the NWT. At Matt.19:26 Jesus said "With God all things are possible" (quoted in part")

thewholetruth
thewholetruth

@Grandfather @carolanne  Writing is the Greatest way to preserve a language or received message . This is why diaries and suicide notes are crucial evidence at a crime scene. This is why police use Facebook pages to catch criminals, although language can change some what over time the central message remains.  As they say in college "Remember to take notes" when the Professor speaks. 

SixSixSix
SixSixSix

@thewholetruth @Grandfather @carolanne Writing when it emerged created a new form idolatry as new technologies are wont to do: idolatry of the written word. The human check provide by oral transmission was eliminated. Editing and manipulation of the written record came to the fore, something easily done in secret by a few people, and the putting of the form of the written ritual and thought over of all else. Personally I think writing was likely the worst thing that ever happened to spirituality.  Now we worship  words rather than deed, abstraction rather than experience, and we believe absurd things like the "word made flesh" as if that phrase even has much meaning.

Grandfather
Grandfather

@thewholetruth @Grandfather @carolanne You adequately explained why the written word is useful temporarily to us humans. But you didn't answer the question I asked. 

One would think that an all-knowing, all-powerful god could find a method better than the written word to reach all the human tribes over the centuries. Conscience, for example, gives us moral guidance and it's a cross-cultural instinct.

GrantMacDonald
GrantMacDonald like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Einstein stated in a letter recently auctioned that the bible was a collection of primitive legends. He said believing in God was childish and he as a Jew is no different than another person and are not chosen by God.



SixSixSix
SixSixSix like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@GrantMacDonald Who cares what "God" said? Einstein is real and God isn't.

Think_again
Think_again

@SixSixSix @GrantMacDonald 

So where is Einstein right now? Is he still 'real'?

Think_again
Think_again

@SixSixSix @Think_again @GrantMacDonald

OK, so you're saying if he once existed, then he still exists or is 'real', even if 'he' cannot be located anywhere in the present, (for as long as the 'Space-Time Continuum' is still around?) That leaves open the argument that Jesus, Mohammed etc., even God are presently 'real' even if they cannot be pointed to either.

And what happens 'after' the Space-Time Continuum' ends? If there is an 'after,' then the continuum of time has not ended -- same for space. 

Within the space-time continuum, with no 'outside,' Einstein and God are equally real, though neither can be located. If you accept this eternal reality of Einstein but reject that of God, then you're just quibbling over which evidence from the past you will accept, since there is no objective evidence of the present existence of either. Your acceptance of the one and rejection of the other is rather arbitrary, no?

In any case, you'll really need to be clear about what you mean by 'relatively speaking,' before the BS trumpets blow.

thewholetruth
thewholetruth

@GrantMacDonaldWho cares what Einstein thinks? He is not God. In Addition, please do not mistake the modern use of the word "Jew" as the same as the Jews from Moses, Elijah and Jesus. Those we call Jews today are largely Europeans from Russia and Poland..(Eastern Europe), Einstein is not of the lineage of Moses. Regardless of Eisenstein's  so-called  knowledge, it is foolishness compared to Mighty God



NeilRoth
NeilRoth like.author.displayName 1 Like

thewholetruth, "Eisensteins (sic) so-called knowledge." is also foolishness to Huckleberry Finn. And for the very same reason.

Hollamann
Hollamann like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth Who cares what Einstein thinks?  People who believe in science and being educated instead of simply answering everything with, "Because the Mighty God says so."

downpour
downpour

@thewholetruth To be fair to Einstien he did come up with a perfect explanation for the motion of planets and galaxies, etc. Whereas the god character in the Bible apparently thought the Earth was flat and supported by stone pillars, that the oceans were held back by iron gates, that snow and hail are kept in large storage containers in the sky, that the stars are small enough to fall to Earth and that space is underwater.

Clearly it was a very misinformed human that made up all that nonsense, not a god. If there really was a god, I doubt he would be very impressed that you are gullible enough to believe the stories in the Bible. Especially when it contains so much evil. If a supernatural being inspired it, then it is much more likely to be the devil, than a supposed god of 'love'.

carolanne
carolanne

@downpour 

Moses wrote the book of Job. You are interpreting those verses in purely physical terms. Job 25:7 says" He is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing". Also in verse 10 it says "He has described a circle upon the face of the waters".

GrantMacDonald
GrantMacDonald like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth @GrantMacDonaldIt is written; so therefore it shall be? We are the chosen people; such a wicked fantasy. 

I am the son of a catholic father who never went to church and a protestant mother who took us to church and Sunday school. Onward christian soldiers; I think not. It’s such absolute drivel. To be manipulated by a santa claus; an easter bunny and worst of all a bogus cross?

It’s now time to shut down the synagogues and churches with the torah & bibles with Leviticus 18:22  and Deuteronomy 13:12-16. To see the religious lunatics manipulate government and peoples’ lives -- is shameful.

Many theologians state quite correctly that the birth; crucifixion; resurrection and other elements of christianity actually didn’t even happen!  Churches are committing hate crimes and more succinctly a violent criminal offence against a federally protected minority namely the gay community. It is actually a bigger moment in history … gays standing up for equality ... the realization that there is something far more evil at work -- hateful religion which should be discharged from society – period.

Religion and the churches should now be exposed as a bigoted structure that gets away with hate mongering.It is a criminal offence to cause harm onto others physically or with written items; torahs – old testament/new testament bibles have been getting away with corruption and cultism based on bogus hocus pocus.

There is no scientific evidence to prove any of the cross related bogus elements of christianity and other religions. Our early human ancestors; on this earth … go back more than 6 million years … 5,996,000 years before the Greeks, Romans and the Jews.  Christianity is basically a 2013 year old fictional cult. In the year 300 AD when Emperor Constantine, who to some was the first pope; went on to fabricate & market Christianity!

Christianity is a fantasy; which turned out to be one of the most hateful & evil concoctions ever perpetrated on the world.  

Einstein stated in a letter recently auctioned that the bible was a collection of primitive legends. He said believing in God was childish and he as a Jew is no different than another person and not chosen by God.

Today’s evangelical extremists are like the nazis who cast others into ovens & are actually supremacists - who practice their bogus hocus pocus - and are trying to suppress and deprive others of their happiness and their legal rights in an open and proud society. 

GrantMacDonald
GrantMacDonald

@carolanne @GrantMacDonald @SixSixSix @thewholetruth Everything in that vile book is BS! 

The Bible & Torah should be banned!

Here are several really loving excerpts from the Torah; the first five books of the Old Testament in the bible -- perhaps read to the congregation on Friday night at a synagogue or a Sunday morning church in the meadow.

1.Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.  Deuteronomy 13:6-10

2.Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.  Deuteronomy 13:12-16

3.Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.  Deuteronomy 17:2-7.

Rabbinical / Priestly rules:

Leviticus 21:17-18 … “No one who is blind or lame or has a defect or any blemish may approach to offer the bread of his God.”

Leviticus 18:22… “You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination ….”

Rabbis; the pope and churches fully aware that Leviticus 18:22 applies to rabbis and priests … refuse to remove this stigma maliciously persecuting gays.  Kids are being bullied into suicide …! 

carolanne
carolanne

@GrantMacDonald @SixSixSix @thewholetruth 

Believe what you want. I have more hope than that. When God created Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden it was not with the idea of them living a short life and dying. His purpose was for them to multiply and fill the earth and live forever on a paradise earth. A rebellious angel stepped in and changed that temporary outcome. That outcome is temporary and will be changed after Armageddon. We have choices to make. Do we want to be ruled by Jehovah God or follow the ruler of this world to complete destruction.

carolanne
carolanne

@GrantMacDonald @thewholetruth 

There are scriptures that support the fact that false religions will be attack and destroyed before Armageddon.

We read about the city of Babylon in the Hebrew scriptures. It was prophesied that the city would be destroyed and never be rebuilt, which eventually happened, Jer.25:12. Rev. the last book of the Bible speaks of "Babylon the Great" and gives the advise to get out of her. Rev. 17:1-6.

SixSixSix
SixSixSix like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth @GrantMacDonald Yeah like you check with the first hand observers and that is what they said. You think the historical Jesus was in on the gig? Where's the evidence? While you are at it, I have another miracle to sell you. Not far from there, a stone's throw really, another dude rode into the sky on his way to heaven on the back of a black stallion about 700 years later. Honest, he has more witness even. His name is Mohammed and he is a prophet of the the One True God.

GrantMacDonald
GrantMacDonald like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth @GrantMacDonald Religion is for the insecure! It appears your life isn't that good -- you must have another?


Simon claimed he was the messiah – and lived about 78 miles from where Jesus lived.   Jesus’ cousin John … told him about Simon and gee it appears Jesus really liked the concept! Perhaps the Roman’s idea of the lions in the arena … could be brought back for Saturdays and it may outsell the Super Bowl …!

This New Testament theory of resurrection and Jesus is love sounds fine until they wheel out the evil of the Torah/Old Testament hatred & “better than thou” – and they think they’ve got your mind and soul …! They can shove it all …! Voodoo is voodoo! I appreciate this one life and don’t expect another! That’s my reality! There’s more proof we ascended from the ocean and walked upright after a microbe beginning 3.5 billion years ago.



thewholetruth
thewholetruth

@GrantMacDonald @thewholetruth   Grant, I hate no one and I Judge no one. I do wish all would know that God is good, merciful, forgiving and loving.  Turn to him and he will turn to you. As for me I hate and Judge no one 

GrantMacDonald
GrantMacDonald like.author.displayName 1 Like

@thewholetruth @GrantMacDonaldHow would you like it … if hate speech was directed to your brother or sister as you sat in the pew; spewed by some better than thou religious lunatic with a hateful black book about Leviticus -- under his arm?

Tony Perkins and his The Family Research Council's opposition to gay rights have landed the outfit onto a list of "hate groups,” like the KKK.Christian colleges should be classified as hate groups and shut down.  UK Prime Minister Cameron is facing the issue of religious extremism; as we speak … regarding homophobia -- being taught to children at churches and schools.

The irony might be -- that the bogus hogus pogus … homophobic religious hate-speech might bring the bible and torah into a banned status and the churches and synagogues shut down!

One should appreciate each day of life and not expect another.

By enjoying their tax exempt status and benefits from the state it also puts churches at the mercy of the state; to be forced to adhere to the human rights laws. Religion is thriving like a cancerous growth on society that should be stopped in its tracks; outlawed & banned.

This holier than thou – written so there it shall be -- fallacy; should be stopped! It is a criminal offence to cause harm onto others physically or with written items … the bible and torah have been getting away with this for ages.

This bogus religious filth should be banned.  It exists as a tax exempt structure which discriminates against human rights.  The pope, bishops; rabbis  and mormons are cult members promoting discrimination against minorities. Perhaps religious establishments have pushed too far from San Francisco to Canada -- and it may backfire to such a degree that the churches should be shut down!

Tell them to take that cross and shove it where the sun don't shine and pay their taxes along the way before they take that cross down forever with its final station; extinction.

The Vatican basically supported Hitler and religion is responsible for more corruption and violence in the world.Pope Ratzinger was involved in the Nazi youth.  The Pope with his blatant witchcraft related to the bible and its hateful beliefs; tries to rule with extreme prejudice against a world … that may fall victim to religions' absolute evil.  

thewholetruth
thewholetruth

@GrantMacDonald @thewholetruth  There is too much to answer in your post but I will touch on a few

1. The greatest evidence of the Cross and the risen Messiah is from those who witnessed it and many were martyred because they would not deny what they witnessed...a risen Messiah. 

2. As for Einstein he is a mere man. Who cares what Einstein thinks... he is a man in a grave..his "opinion" about God does not amount to a hill of bean..it is his "opinion"..he is just sinful man like all of us

3. Some theologians want to deny the cross? So what...People have departed from the God's words from the beginning of time"

4.A true follower of God commits no crimes against any group of people or any individual.. Any church or synagogue that promotes that is wrong

Please review the ten commandments and you will see there is no hatred of any groups for a follower of God. 

****The laws of God or (Religion)  were written for the followers of God  and these Laws should not be forced on non-believers****




carolanne
carolanne

@GrantMacDonald @thewholetruth 

Constantine came along and made so-called Christianity the state religion. Prior to Constantine Christians or Jesus disciples were despised, persecuted and many martyred.