Viewpoint: Just Because Zimmerman “Started It” Doesn’t Mean He’s Guilty

People are hoping for a Zimmerman conviction as a symbol of black grievance, and while that grievance is legitimate, that's not justice

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While the jury for George Zimmerman’s trial could decide on a manslaughter charge, it wouldn’t be surprising if Zimmerman walks away a free man. The prosecution simply hasn’t been able to disprove his claim that he killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense, and Zimmerman has looked ever more the overzealous bungler than the bigoted murderer.

There seems to be a general consensus that even if it was self-defense, Zimmerman should not be acquitted “because he started it,” which is to say, he got out of his car and approached Trayvon Martin. And it is true that if Zimmerman hadn’t processed Martin as suspicious because of his skin color, then Martin would still be alive.

(MOREPreparing for Riots After Zimmerman Verdict Is Racial Fear Mongering)

But we need to be more careful about what we are thinking of justice as here. Here’s a thought experiment that shows the flaws of the “he started it” argument.

 

A 30-year-old black man we’ll call Darnell Haskins, not especially tall, and not in great shape, lives in a mostly black town where young white toughs from the town across the river have been committing petty burglaries lately. Haskins is a self-appointed neighborhood “mayor” of sorts who likes to keep an eye on things.

Haskins sees a white 17-year-old we’ll call Greg Pruitt walking through, follows him grumbling about these “young crackers” and stops him. It turns out Pruitt is just minding his own business visiting a friend, doesn’t take kindly to being detained, and one thing leads to another. Pruitt, six feet tall and not unaccustomed to defending himself, is on top of Haskins banging his head on the ground. Haskins, losing the battle and desperate, takes out his gun and fires. Pruitt dies.

All will agree that this is a reasonable reconstruction of what likely happened that night in Sanford, Florida—except with the races changed. So: how many people would think Haskins should spend his life in jail for murder – even though he started it?

Few. If anything, the gut feeling among many would be that we have to “understand” Haskins as reacting to centuries of white racism.

(MORERachel Jeantel Explained, Linguistically)

And that shows that what concerns Martin’s defenders is not justice in the abstract, but a class-action kind of justice, addressing the disproportionate violence and abuse against black men by law enforcement, school officials, or Zimmermans. People are hoping Zimmerman will be found guilty as a symbol of black grievance, and while that grievance is legitimate, first it’s something other than justice and second, even such a verdict wouldn’t change how America feels about black boys. Another thought experiment: if Zimmerman does get put away, the people who are supposed to be getting “teached” here will learn that a self-inflated twerp who didn’t know what he was in for ended up accidentally killing a black man and got sentenced far more harshly than he would have if he were white. Progress indeed.

786 comments
KennethDurden
KennethDurden

No, Mr. McWhorter. I'm a black man and I say that your reverse scenario doesn't matter. Haskins should be tried for, at least, manslaughter. While the death was not premeditated murder, one could easily see how he had gone out as a vigilante, feeling confident in his newly acquired firearm. 

Kriegar
Kriegar

A 17 year old was stalked, harassed, pursued, accosted, and detained by a 30 year old armed watchman, resulting in the shooting death of the 17 year old.  30 year old watchmen is found not guilty of homicide, negligent homicide, or manslaughter.

An immature 17 year old white kid was stalked, harassed, pursued, accosted, and detained by a black 30 year old armed watchman, resulting in the shooting death of the white 17 year old.  The black 30 year old watchmen is found not guilty of homicide, negligent homicide, or manslaughter.

An immature black  17 year old, suspended from school for misbehaving, who watches videos I do not like, on the way back to his fathers' home from buying candy at the local store, was stalked, harassed, pursued, accosted, and detained by a 30 year old armed watchman,  who has been involved with police in his past regarding domestic violence complaints  resulting in the shooting death of the 17 year old.  30 year old watchmen is found not guilty of homicide, negligent homicide, or manslaughter.

An immature black  17 year old, on the way back to his fathers' home from buying candy at the local store, was stalked, harassed, pursued, accosted, and detained by a 30 year old armed watchman,  who has been involved with police in his past regarding domestic violence complaints  resulting in the shooting death of the 17 year old.  30 year old watchmen is found not guilty of homicide, negligent homicide, or manslaughter.

Kriegar
Kriegar

"All will agree that this is a reasonable reconstruction"


No, they will not. Your construct is both weak, and invalid. Your leave out key descriptors, and key events.

[
A 30-year-old black black neighborhood watch man we’ll call Darnell Haskins, armed, stocky and uniformed, lives in a mostly black town (where people are known to be armed, known to profile, and known to act with racist intent), where young white toughs from the town across the river have been committing petty burglaries lately. Haskins is a self-appointed neighborhood “mayor” of sorts who likes to keep an eye on things.

Haskins sees a white 17-year-old we’ll call Greg Pruitt {who lives nearby, with his father}, follows him grumbling about these “young crackers” and {then pursues him, against the advice of 911 operators}. It turns out Pruitt is just minding his own business (returning home from 7-11 buying candy, to his fathers' home}, {is afraid, and then threatened with being followed, then pursued, and then} detained, {in the dark, in the rain}and one thing leads to another. Pruitt, six feet tall and not unaccustomed to defending himself, is on top of Haskins, {not unaccustomed to inserting himself in police territory, thereby displaying his own willingness to confrontation} banging his head on the ground (in self defense} (after, in your construct, being detained-mark that). Haskins, losing the battle and desperate, takes out his gun and fires. Pruitt dies.]

Manslaughter of a person who has been forced to defend himself from a pursuing threat, after having attempted to flee that threat.


Kriegar
Kriegar

"ended up accidentally killing a black man" (17 year old kid)

Negligent homicide. Manslaughter. By your very own words.

bcpanda
bcpanda

You provide a very weak arguement. In fact, I would think Haskins is guilty as well. you see, media wants to make this about race, but it is not. It is about justice. And the fact is, no one has the right to kill someone when that person was looking for a confrontation. I would be sympathetic to Zimmerman if he was just minding his own business but got jumped by Martin (Which is NOT what happened). Zimmerman started a fight, realized he couldn't win, and then shot the boy. Most of us, Myself included, learn to not start fights with people because as children, we got into fights and  sometimes got our asses whooped. Shame on Florida, shame on our justice system, and shame on all of those who call themselves Americans, yet are pleased when one American dies unnecessarily and another gets away with Murder.  

RichBrunelle
RichBrunelle

The thing Zimmerman is most guilty of, is not announcing to Martin that Zimmerman was "Security" or "Neighborhood Watch" because I believe Martin attacked Zimmerman. But, he attacked a "Creepy Cracker" that could have been any kind of thug, pervert, or criminal. Short of announcing his authority, carrying a concealed weapon, no uniform or other indicator of "Official" for the community, Martin could have killed Zimmerman and been protected by the Stand Your Ground Law. Our failure to properly prosecute the case does not alter the fact that Zimmerman was playing "wannabe cop" and we do not need his sort patrolling our streets. 

dougbr
dougbr

Zimmerman fully intenteded to kill Martin before he ever got out of his car. Goading someone into attacking and the claiming self defense is the oldest play in the vigilante playbook. 

ScottGates
ScottGates

He went to start a fight armed with a gun.  

Sorry, he was guilty of 2nd degree when he got out of the car with his weapon.  

kiljoy616
kiljoy616

The mob mentality says your wrong, so who is right, oh wait the 6 Jurors that is who.


schwettyjohnson
schwettyjohnson

There is no general consensus that Zimmerman "started it", because there is no EVIDENCE that he did.

The author makes a simple and clear cut self defense case into some sort of phony thought experiment.

And he lies when he says Zimmerman processed Martin because of his races- he has no evidence to support such an inflammatory assertion.

ww47
ww47

The problem with the Zimmerman/Martin confrontation and the subsequent trial is that to really understand what happened requires a huge time investment that most people are unwilling to make. I saw this crisis coming, which is why I start...ed to make that investment shortly after Zimmerman was arrested last year. I listened to all the 911 calls and read most of the evidence as it became available. During the trial I also made a point of watching a great deal of the testimony, because that is what it took to develop an understanding of the complexity of the issues surrounding this case. The six jury members who were charged with making the final decision regarding Zimmerman's guilt or innocence are among those who also put in the requisite time. They were initially split in their decision, and only after many hours of deliberation came to their "Not Guilty" verdict; it was not a knee-jerk decision. Neither should our evaluation of their decision be knee-jerk. Anyone who wishes to criticize the jury's decision, especially if they want to assume Zimmerman's actions or the jury's decision were based on race, needs to put in the required time - it will take you about 100 hours.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

A big deal, a very big deal is being made over who said "help", but that's actually less relevant then WHEN the person said help. I believe it was actually both, but that zimmerman ws heard better. But let's assume it was just zimms. Here's what happened; trayvon did in fact say "why you followin me for?" to which george zimmerman then said, "What are you doing around here?" [this according to rachel jeantel]

It's at thsi point I believe mroe words were exchanged, reasonable, beligerent or otherwise, and then Zimms, in an attempt to subdue Trayvon [perhaps to genuinely hold him for authorities (something he has no legal right to do without probable cause, something I feel he is lacking)] he is calling out help help over and over again, and eventually trayvon punches him to get him off. There's a lot of talk aboitu how zimms was callign out for help over and over AS his head was getting bashed, but I don't think that's the case. I think Zimms was calling for someone to help him subdue the "suspect." Eventually that led to blows. Now how convincing is it that zimms was acting in self defense ;)

Kriegar
Kriegar

@RichBrunelle IF I believe he attacked Zimmerman, I believe, as you do, that he did so in self defense, in a situation created solely and directly by Zimmerman, as a result of racial profiling, perpetrated by Zimmerman, on Martin, in the dark and the rain.

I do so absolutely agree with you.

dave79
dave79

@RichBrunelle You are ignorant. Stand your  ground does not allow people to shoot people they call creepy. And that is how TM described GZ's appearance not his actions. Zimmerman was told by dispatch to get somewhere he could see Martin and so he did. It isnt like he got out of his car and followed him down the street or drove alongside him. When GZ did finally exit his car Martin was no where in sight and he was seeking a house number not TM. TM approached GZ for the 2nd time and attacked. Stand your ground and race had nothing to do with this case. There is no evidence or recording that would make anyone believe that this hispanic man targeted martin because of skin color. And this was self defense zimmerman had no option to retreat while being pummled, and the poor guy yelled for help several times and noone came he used deadly force as a last resort.The 1st thing GZ said to police was I yelled for help and nobody came. He didnt want to hurt anyone, simply protect his neighbors property and noone makes a 1 mile long trip on foot for skittles and juice unless there is another reason.

dave79
dave79

@ScottGates he was legally carrying that fire arm and was on his way to buy groceries. A person going to kill someone doesnt call the police. the police asked him to get somewhere he could see martin. That is why it appeared he was following him. he wasnt literally following him just kept popping up where martin could see him. how is that looking for trouble he is innocent god bless this nation where you can still defend your self, your family, your property and community from thugs who carry burglary tools and are found in possesion of stolen jewlery.but nobody wants to talk about the fact that when zimmerman called police he said martin was standing in a front yard looking at houses. how do you know he wasnt going to burglarize one. you dont and i dont know that he was. but zimmerman called police based on his suspicious behavior nd martin attacked him for it and got justice.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@schwettyjohnson OMG-how frickin ridiculous ARE you? There is EVERY evidence the Zimmerman started it! What in hells half acre are you talking about? OMFG!

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

But hey, hey buddy. It's okay. Your preciosu profiling is still okay. your sacred lamb wont' be slaughtered. I know, it's difficult, I mean your preconceived notions of what went on have been blown away, and you're realing from the fact I've just posted a chain of events that are entirely likely, and very well supported by the evidence presented in the case that you swore was what really went down, and I know the cognitive dissonance dancing in your head hurts right now, but it's all a moot point isn't it? The jury never heard this part of it because the prosecution never gave this any rel thoguth. If they had, well then, their own policies and procedures regarding profiling might be thrown into turmoil, and if there's anythign comfortable prosecutors dont' like, it's that their policies and procedures might be thrown into serious question. Your'e sfe buddy,. You can relax. the jury will never hear the truth... just Zimmerman's taped, canned, entirely contrived account.

You can go to sleep now ;)

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

It really isn't as oversimplified as you've made it Schwetty. It's really not. And see, that's the problem. Easier is just more convenient for oyu. You like things easy. Thinking is complicated. And complicated makes yoru brain hurt.

But hey, a lack of consensus is what we should all be focused on, you know, instead of discovering the truth. Riiiiight ;)'

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

While Trayvon is attempting to get away from zimmerman and trying to get him to let go of the bottom of his shirt on his right side [left side to Zimmerman], he's throwing wild punches, and landing a few punches, but Zimmerman just dodges [thank goodness for frightened reflexes and that years worth of MMA gym training], banging his own head against the concrete in the process, and causing Trayvon to miss, giving Zimms a glancing blow and scraping his knuckle on the sidewalk. Zimmerman has had enough, goes for his gun, and just as he lets go of Trayvons shirt... BLAM!*
 
Trayvon in shock and disbeleif mouths the words, "You shot me?!" Likely continuing the thought, ...Over a fist fight?!.... Trayvons world goes black and he clutches his chest, falls and begins dying.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

The dispatch hears the acoustics of the call change and asks Zimmerman if he's following the hooded figure to which zimmerman answers yes. The dispatch informs him "We don't need you to do that." In fact, the national neighborhood watch manual, page 22 bottom of page says this in large print:
"REMEMBER:
Community members only serve as the extra "eyes and ears" of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities."
 
Zimmerman has taken not only this training, but training with law enforcement and has law enforcement friends and has taken legal classes.
He knows better than to go against this. Yet, he does anyways.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Zimmerman wants to make a difference, he wants to look good as a neighborhood watchman, and we know from testimony that he also wants to be a police officer. This is an opportunity for him to show his quality. Keep in mind, he's lived there for 3 years, there are 3 streets in his complex, and he's called police before. If this hooded figure gets away the police might think he's crying wolf for attention. He doesn't want that to happen. He wants to be seen as a credible watchman and officer. He uses the dispatchers request for a street name as an excuse to get out of his car and trail the "suspect" on foot, like a real officer would do. The fact is he could have just as easily accomplished all he wanted to while he stayed in his nice, warm, dry, safe vehicle, but instead risks injury or death to track this hooded figure, who he believes is on drugs.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Trayvong thinks he sees this guy in a vehicle watching him, but not really sure if it's someone in the car or just a headrest.  He goes to look in the car, but can't quite see, so he walks around to overcome the glare from a nearby streetlamp. Zimmerman starts telling his own scary stories in his head at this point, filling in the blanks as to why this hooded figure would do this, and thinking the worst. Trayvon Meantime sees it is in fact some dude in a car, decides he'd better beat feet and head for home. At one point even walking back down the original path he took to see if it was all in his head, but noticing the car driving slowly up the street, runs away. After rounding a corner of the complex he decides the guy isn't following him any more, and slows his roll and continues talking to Rachel Jeantel.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Here's what happened...
Trayvon Martin was visiting his father and soon to be stepmother because he'd been suspended for getting into trouble at school. His dad and fiance had already made plans to go out that evening but warned trayvon to be careful and to stay at home because there were some robberies in the neighborhood. Later that evening, Trayvon, likely bored to tears, begged his farther for permission to just go to the store to get hinmself an iced tea and his future brother a bag of skittles. Keep in mind he WAS grounded.

Zimmerman saw the hooded figure walking lackadaisically through the rain, and, not recognizing him, formed an opinion in his mind based on what he'd experienced from other situations having nothing to do with this new person. He assumed and called authorities.

Trayvon, in the meantime, not really paying attention was busy talking to Rachel Jeantel on his cell phone, and wearing earbuds, possibly giving Zimmerman the impression he was talking to himself, and looking up every once in a while to reset his bearing. Remember, he's grounded; so, he's going to drag out any time outside that he can, cause when he's home, that's it, he's home. Store and Back, that's what his father said. A decision I have no doubt he'll regret for the rest of his life.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@ww47 I, in no way, feel that the jury's actions were either knee-jerk, nor racial. Absolutely not.

What gets me the most, was the account by a jurist, of the instructions given them, that were changed directly as a result of the SYG statute. In my frank estimation, were I to have sat on that jury, it would have resulted in a hung jury. I would not have caved to the instructions, and conviction would likely have been overturned on appeal.

DavidWilkins
DavidWilkins

@brothergrimace Brother, please don't say anything else that would make you look more stupid than this post. If Jeantel heard Martin say "why you following me?" than she would have heard Travon yelling "let go of me" if Zimmerman was trying to hold him. Something that never came up in the trial you obviously didn't watch. Your theory is full of holes with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@dave79 @RichBrunelle And yet, Zimmerman killed someone that he found, by profiling, to be "creepy"..."suspicious", in fact. Zimmerman was told by dispatch not to follow, but he did not listen, so getting somewhere that he could see him is imperative to Zimmerman how? And required him to leave his vehicle, contrary to his training, how? It is exactly like he got out of his vehicle and followed him down the street, as that is exactly what he did. And if he did not, then exactly how did he end up out of his vehicle? GZ followed, and then pursued TM. Even then, it was not enough for him, and he had to continue to do so, even after TM attempted to flee the stalker who was behind him. Stand your ground had everything to do with it, as TM had every single right in the world to stand his ground under the threat that he perceived GZ to be. RACE had everything in the world to do with it, because of the description whereby GZ profiled TM, by GZ's very own words-yet you concern yourself only with the words of TM. There is every evidence that this afro/hispanic man targeted TM because of his race and color, by his profiling description alone. Zimmerman had every option to retreat prior to TM's alleged, and defensive attack, but he chose not to utilise them, in furtherance of his cop wannabe stalking of the victim. This alone makes it self-defense only on the part of Trayvon Martin. And TM hollered for help, no GZ. Particularly taking into account the length, volume, and duration of those pleas for help, and GZ's obviously lack of vocal distress afterward. GZ said a lot of things, but the first thing out of his mouth being that he called for help, and no one came, is an unproven assertion. A self-serving one, indeed, but unproven. He wanted to be a bad-ass wannabe cop, and even went so far as to place someone larger than he under fear of assault and battery, resulting in that victims death, in the furtherance of his desire to be Captain America. Plenty of kids walk a mile, for very many reasons that you would find inconsequential and unimportant, and candy and beverage rates up there pretty high on the list of important things to a 17 year old, much less in the heat of Florida...although your remarks regarding this little ditty are irrelevant, unsupported circumstantial  and inflammatory allegations in their entirety. They are both insulting, and ridiculously biasing to even read.

You, dave79, are proven to be the ignorant one here-most telling in the fact that you cannot even see the truth in the other side of the argument at all, that you might be able to reasonably attack it. Then, your unsupported allegation f ignorance of the OP seals the deal, that you are, indeed, the ignorant.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Race only had something to do with this case as it applies to Zimmerman giving a descriptor to non emergency dispatch when asked/prompted by them to do so. No, Zimmerman targeted him because he considered him an f ing punk and an a hole, before his first words or conact with the young man. This was NOT self defense because Zimmerman did NOT suffer life threatening injuries nor would any reasonable person in his situation believe he was.

Zimmerman profiled Martin as a f in punk and one of those a holes that always gets away but had no probable cause to do so. Stopping, looking, and turning are not crimes nor are they suspicious. And the "poor guy" as you call him was yelling for help to subdue the suspect, long before he was also calling for help when he started losing the fight HE started. And when he told police that, he meant noone came to help him subdue the "suspect. He had no reason to "protect" his neighbors property because Martin was not harming or stealing or casing his neighbors property and was therefor not in danger to be protected, not then and not ever. To fit the need to be protected something must actually be in danger. And 'I' make a one mile jog at night to get a drink and whatever the he ll else I want if the fancy strikes me. That's neither a crime nor suspicious, and in Martin's case was wholely predictable considering he was Grounded and would do anything to get out of the house. He's a TEENAGER.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

You are ignorant. The stand your ground law states that you do not have a duty to retreat. It makes no mention of firearms anywhere in any context. When Trayvon Martin was describing George Zimmerman as a creepy a_ cra cker, he was refering to the whole package which included being followed, tracked, the way Zimmerman looked, and I'm certain the final confrontation as well. Zimmerman at NO time was instructed to get somewhere he could see him and Zimmerman didn't know the kids name until days later. Martin never knew Zimmerman's name. And yes actually it IS that he followed him and drove after him. Zimmerman could have just as easily, and he knew this, drive to the nearest street sign or house number and he knew THAT as well. Trayvon did NOT approach George Zimmerman EXCEPT by Zimmerman's word alone. Nor did Trayvon Martin Attack George Zimmerman EXCEPT by Zimmerman's word alone. Stand your ground does have to do with this case because that's what Trayvon had the right and good reason to do based on Zimmerman's own actions.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@dave79 @ScottGates Where in Gods' name do you get that he was going to buy groceries? He could assert that he was going to the church to join the priest in  prayer-doesn't make it so! And "legal carry of a firearm" has little to nothing to do with it, except that it facilitated the homicide of a 17 year old kid, buying candy, and heading back to Dads' house. The police didn't direct him to follow the kid, and even told him that they did not need him to. Coincidentally "popping up" is convenient, certainly. Believable? Not so much. He was looking for trouble. Sounds like you would be willing to buy the Brooklyn Bridge off this guy, in the Gobi Desert. This character is in no way, and by NO means innocent, by any stretch of the imagination. Now you paint yourself as delusional. Where do you come up with these total lies regarding burglary tools and stolen jewelry, for gods sake?

God bless well-armed American heroes that are willing to stop the psycho-vigilante George Zimmerman thugs of this world from killing 17 year old kids, just because they are too tall, or too strong to beat...or too black to walk home from the store after buying candy and a beverage. I will certainly pray for your mortal soul.

He had just left the home of someone, relevant to his duties as neighborhood watch. He then went to an area that was not even IN his area of duty, because he "saw someone suspicious".
  Zimmerman certainly made his own self-serving case to exonerate him from killing a black kid who may, or may not have defended himself from a stalker with a gun-but that is about ALL he did. And I will bet my bottom dollar that sooner or later, the guilt of what he did will eat him alive, and sooner or later, land his A$$ in jail, exactly where he belongs. Apparently, this is, in fact, evidenced by his recent behavior!

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Zimmerman called police because he was a self glorifying busy body and because George Zimmerman was a suspicious man in general, not because anythign ATrayvon Martin did was actually suspicious. Zimmerman pursued Martin, Martin stood his ground and Zimmerman shot him because he didn't want to have to go home and tell his wife he got beat up by an innocent teenager.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

ok, there's so many things wrong with this it's hard to know where to begin. Zimmerman wanted to be an officer so he was staking out his neighborhood looking for "suspects". Without saying it's the case, a person may very well call the police if their intent is to provide justification and to cover their but. The police NEVER requested Zimmerman get where he could see Martin. They only asked if he could still see him, but even if they had he had zero reason to get out of his car to do so. As well, Zimmerman was out of his car beyond that exchange and after he hung up with dispatch.

Get your facts straight, there were NO burglary tools on in around near under behind or in the vicinity of Martin or his body. He was not a thug and we have only Zimmerman's account to support that claim. Martin was also NOT in possession of stolen jewelery. Trayvon Martin was NOT standing in someone's yard looking at houses. You're getting that call mixed up with a previous one he had made earlier the year before. Of course we know he wasn't going to burglarize one. He had been walking in the rain with his head downward and looking at the sidewalk so the rain wouldn't get in his face. When he looked up and looked around he wasn't casing houses he was regaining his baring.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@brothergrimace And, quite frankly, I don't see a lack of consensus at all. In fact, I get the distinct impression that very many of us, like yourself, know and understand all too well. It should be a crime that all of this hinged on the very narrow wording of the jury instructions, changed as a result of SYG, allowed this to go unanswered by justice.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Trayvon is still grabbing on to Zimmerman's right cuff trying to get him to let go. Zimmerman still screaming for help. Trayvon has been pulling away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman, not about to let this f-ing punk a_hole go, just goes right along with the pulls, and the two move down the sidewalk. Trayvon has had enough and punches Zimmerman in the face causing him to stumbel and fall, hitting his own head on the concrete in the process [something he blamnes on Trayvon], and pulling Trayvon over him. 

At this point, they've made enough noise that the neighbors have began to notice and a witness named John looks out his condo and see's Trayvon stumbeling over the top of Zimmerman, [accounting for his version of events] throwing wild punches in an attempt to get Zimmerman, a man he doesn't know and has never met who never told him he was part of neighborhood watch, to let him go, and the neighbor see's that and warns he's calling police. Zimmerman is still screaming help, other neighbors have called 911, and chaos ensues inside their homes.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

From Trayvon's point of view .. damn, this Ni**a's still followin him. He decides he's not going to be able to avoid this guy; so, he attempts to find out what's going on, "Why you folloin me for?" Holding cell phone, brings it down to his side.
 
Zimmerman, "What're you doing around here?"
 
Trayvon  "{I'm going home,}Why, you got a problem?"
 
Zimmerman, "No, I don't have a problem, {you don't belong here. I just called the cops, they're on their way. Come with me."} *Attempts to grab Trayvon* Trayvon drops his phone in the wet grass. Pushes Zimmerman's hand away.

Trayvon, "Get off!" 
 
*Zimmerman tries again, mumbles something under his breath, grabs Trayvon's hoodie. Trayvon again warns, "Get off!" {"I didn't do nothin, leave me alone."} and pulls away grabbing Zimmerman's arm to get him to let go. Trayvon's cell phone goes dead. Zimmerman starts screaming for help.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

On the other side of this, Trayvon is still talking to Rachel Jeantel. Maybe they're flirting. At some point he notices he's being followed and comments that to Rachel. She asks what he looks like and trayvon answers, a Creepy a_ Cracker. Rachel Jeantel then cautions him that he should be careful cause the guy might be a pervert or a rapist gonna take him away to his dungeon or something, to which Trayvon tells her not to joke around like that. Now HE's getting uncomfortable, but as all young men will do, likely plays it off a little. He decides to try to play it safe and pull back a bit off the sidewalk out of the light and hopes the creepy a_ cracker won't notice him.

Zimmerman at this point is stilll looking for a... "streetsign/address", when he spots the teen. The fact that Trayvon isn't exactly on the path and going somewhere only confirms in Zimmerman's already suspicious mind that this guy is "up to no good." Now's his chance... he starts walking towards Trayvon.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Zimmerman wants to be seen dealing with the situation like a professional. So what's he do? He drops the call with dispatch and gives dispatch the impression he's going back to his car, and that the police should meet him there. This is an attempt to alleviate the dispatchers concern about Zimmerman putting himself, and possibly others in harms way. Zimmerman can handle himself you see; he has a federal marshall for a best friend, a years worth of MMA training he's been dying to try out, and a concealed carry permit and the firearm to match. No ahole's gonna commit a crime on HIS watch.

kiljoy616
kiljoy616

@brothergrimace Oh yeah "scary story" you had a chance to rebute brothergrimace and you messed it up and interjected your own BS. 

Kriegar
Kriegar

@brothergrimace That poor Dad. My heart does actually bleed for he, and for the mother. The idea that our kids can end up dead in this activity alone, much less at the hand of some self-appointed "Superhero", not only breaks my heart, but scares me to death. To add that to the other monsters out there, as well? It is entirely too much.

Following it up with the definitive conclusion that, were this kid white, this would never have happened? THAT enrages me.

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Following along now? Or do I have to dumb it down further for you?

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

David, please, keep typing. I enjoy watchign you punctuate your ignorance with certainty. the fact is, Rachel Jeantyel said, quite clearly, one of the things she actually said most clearly actually, was that she heard Trayvon say "Get off! Get off!" just before the phone went dead.

Hey, here's a novel idea; take that vanity mirror down from your monitor BEFORE you start typing. Clearly, of the two of us, it is YOU who didn't even watch the trial. And to be quite frank, my account is not only fully supported by the evidence, but the evidence would not exist BUT FOR my account. But hey, thanks for playing, here's a nice parting gift for you ;)

Kriegar
Kriegar

@brothergrimace OMG, all in your last two statements, you have said it all. TYVM. And what teen wouldn't stroll a lousy mile for candy? Seriously. And that cost this kid his life, and his reputation after he was dead.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@brothergrimace "Rachel Jeantel then cautions him that he should be careful cause the guy might be a pervert or a rapist gonna take him away to his dungeon or something, to which Trayvon tells her not to joke around like that."


Which is, in essence, exactly what ended up happening.

Kriegar
Kriegar

@brothergrimace Elsewhere, I have seen Zimmerman likened to an old, not in so good shape, elderly black fellow.

Hardly inline with what you describe here.

Can you imagine!?!

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

What's this? No morepithy remarks from the peanut gallery?! Shocker

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

Clearly you have some input of yoru own. Well, don't  keep us in suspense dolt... give us a lil bit of your astute observations then. I hope you aren't talking about the hogwash you posted above

brothergrimace
brothergrimace

*buzzer* Oops, incorrect response kiljoy616. But do please keep typing. It's fun watching you inject YOUR own BS. Go ahead. Keep punctuating that ignorance with certainty