Was Sex With Children Ever O.K.?

"Things were different then" is no excuse for inappropriate sexual contact, no matter how permissive the era

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Atria Books

In an interview with TIME this week, biologist Richard Dawkins talks about being molested as a child, which he says was not a particularly big deal. “What’s happened now is that society has developed a horror of it, and rightly so. But I do think it’s important to not be too judgmental of past ages by the standards of ourselves,” he says. “You have to look at history through contemporary eyes rather than through today’s eyes.”

Similarly, the long-ago victim of Roman Polanski’s predations has released a book, in which she is not as hard on her famous rapist as many people expected. “Not everyone will understand this,” Samantha Geimer writes, “but I never thought he wanted to hurt me; he wanted me to enjoy it. He was arrogant and horny.”

(MORE: Should We Shun the Works of Artists Who Are Predators)

Dawkins was molested by a master at his primary school while he watched a squash match. True to his scientific bent, he describes it pretty clinically in his book An Appetite for Wonder: “He did no more than have a little feel, but it was extremely disagreeable (the cremasteric reflex is not painful, but in a skin-crawling creepy way it is almost worse than painful) as well as embarrassing.”

After it was over, young Dawkins ran off to tell his friends. Many of them had had the same unfortunate experience. In his telling, it seems to have been more or less regarded as bad luck, rather like having been bowled for a duck (having scored no runs) in cricket. “I don’t think he did any of us lasting damage,” he notes.

But Dawkins has not put that last hypothesis through rigorous scientific testing. The studies on any child-adult sexual contact are pretty clear, whether it is so-called consensual or not. It can be toxic for the child. There are thousands of sexual-abuse survivors who struggle with what happened to them decades after the event.

(MORE: Sexual Abuse Mars the Brain in Specific Ways)

Dawkins seems to be suggesting that in making a huge deal of sex offenses against minors that happened long ago, we may be overreacting. And perhaps making things worse for the victims. Indeed, Geimer has claimed that the media victimized her by constantly invading her privacy every time Polanski popped back into the news.

Certainly, things have changed since the birth control pill first unshackled sex and pregnancy and folks threw sexual caution to the winds. What had once been regarded as an unfortunate moral failing — a penchant for young children — is now universally seen as predatory and dangerous to others. But the degree of damage sexual abuse causes may have less to do with the public attitude toward it, as Dawkins seems to suggest, and more to do with the personality, life experience and relative health of the abused. Whenever humans are wounded they heal differently, even if the injuries appear similar. Some need rest, others exercise; some respond better to therapy, while others benefit from something more invasive.

RAINN, the well-respected Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, has a list of possible symptoms of adult victims of child sexual assault. They range from problems setting boundaries to full-blown alcohol or drug addiction. Dawkins was lucky to have got off so lightly. Samantha Geimer could not be called lucky, but she healed. (She says she was definitely not all right for a year after the event.)

In other words, just because some people have come through sexual abuse with no more injuries than an “extremely unpleasant” memory doesn’t mean that childhood sexual abuse should be taken lightly. This isn’t simply a matter of a shifting moral climate that may well shift back again. We also know the damage isn’t just to the victim. While Dawkins was still at school, the master who molested him committed suicide.

219 comments
TomRobbins
TomRobbins

Using science or religion to either try and claim there is no Objective reality, or bend it to the views of those in power is disgusting.  There is no subjective morality, its a fantasy of troubled minds.

AddieC
AddieC

@nomad

I want you to look through history, and look at the people involved in the analysis of thought processes in the masses and how many of them have been called crazy. Probably every single one. Erotogenesis is everybody's journey, and yes it tends to lead in that direction statistically. America is a perfect petri dish to study, because it's relatively small, relatively wired, social media is going mad, and the legal system is in full blitz all the time. I've been reading through hundreds of anecdotes by terminal care nurses, autobiographies of Semi- incarcerated septua and octogenarians. In a mirror of culture at large, it is largely the homosexuals who have enough introspection to describe what they're feeling with enough accuracy for the reader to understand it. This Genesis, this journey that we make through our preferences through our lives is something which is not been looked at at all. In fact the whole notion of paraphilia is seen as a single stick on label which maybe applied once in a persons life never removed and supersedes all others. Rubbish. This journey is something where logic will still lead you if your feelings can't go there. To quote Billy Joel, "you may be right…"

bobbaft
bobbaft

What did I just read?

notLostInSpace
notLostInSpace

No, that is the answer.  I do have one scenario.  Earth has been destroyed and the only remaining humans are a bunch of girls and one man.  This man has problems (I don't know, he's old maybe, or has a serious injury) and will not live a long time.   If you want to save the species (which, having destroyed the world, is a good question)?

So, since that is pretty far fetched, I will go back to "No".  And we should do what we can to change those who believe otherwise.

gandalf.the.shining.white
gandalf.the.shining.white

The latest phrase - almost legitimizes this -"rape culture" - as if its any form of culture at all. The underlying concept - to dehumanize a woman - and make her a sex-slave. Are we going back to, well, basically people who took people as slaves, and sex-slaves. I'm sure , related to this is the taking of 'young males 8-15 or so, and turning them into soldiers. These concepts seem to be the total opposite of what a healthy, balanced upbringing should be. These young children turn into traumatised adults, at the very least. What can be done??

ruthgfeldman
ruthgfeldman

Sex with a female child who may be fertile at age 9 or 10 but not fully grown can be disastrous or even fatal for the child, if pregnancy ensues. If the child is very small, the growing fetus and childbirth can cause internal or skeletal damage, perhaps death. 

BSF1
BSF1

Pedophilia has been considered OK in cultures past, as well as present.  You will find it condoned in all religions, from the ancient Biblical sects,  to the Greeks and Romans, to Christian Kings, Popes and Bishops, to contemporary Muslim and other African and Mediterranean cultures. We consider it reprehensible, but unfortunately, too much of the world didn't and doesn't.  I don't think we'll ever be able to do anything about it.

michellejwf
michellejwf

Addie, you make good points. 

However, generalizing a whole nation is not correct. I myself am not American, but I think its unfair of you to suggest those things.

I agree that rape is NEVER okay, though this topic is one of sensitivity that may never be solved. On one hand, parents should have say over their children, and whether they want to see them without adequate clothing or not, but on the other hand, this may be pedophilia. 

But how do you distinguish a caring parent to a pedophile? And more importantly, how will it be controlled?

AddieC
AddieC

I sincerely see this as a vast emotional plague, the irrational reaction to this topic to the point where accusation equals guilt. To the point where people will murder each other over Photoshopped photographs or badly edited together movies. I have written on this topic, and worked in several countries, but only in the United States have I had five computers destroyed, hard drives wiped out I had people break into my house and steal writing and notebooks. My degrees and credentials, folders full of doctoral work. I've had files stolen from me edited with garbage added and the names of people I know distributed widely. Something I've done is threatening to expose someone. My statistics are not incorrect, 90% of these rapes and assaults are committed by family members or trusted friends. Uniformed police are sent into schools and preschools to explain how dangerous strangers are to little children, in a country which doesn't allow sex education until after high school in most places. You do realize the danger considering imprint psychology, look at Adler, Skinner, Lorenz et al. you're giving them rape education, and no sex information. What does this rape-only education do at the formative stage? That too coming from an authority figure...This creates the personality type that we called the social conservative, a willfully ignorant, easily persuaded, person who bands with others based on a common secret that they are hiding. Conservatives are easy to spot, they're all hiding a secret. The Liberals are those who confess everything who have their heart on their sleeve, equally problematic in my opinion, not at all as conspiratorial. This is a formula to turn a country into a war machine, because stranger danger also causes xenophobia, combine that with sexual repression it becomes aggression they are ready to march to war together. Or at least watch it on TV from their living rooms and cheer. No geography lessons necessary, "we're kicking the ass of them over there. " recently the whole country accepted the president attacking the wrong country, Iraq didn't attack us, they didn't even know who osama was.

But I'm not gonna get into the link between conservative psychology and early childhood rape education. I'm gonna get into which exercises of mine were stolen and destroyed, I managed to get off some of the new he digital Rorschach blots to several prominent European sexologists who have used them to much effect.By using computer software to generate accurate skin tones and combining biomorphic evolutionary shapes in layers I was able to make patients spot sometimes hundreds of penises where there were no penises it was merely hands overlaid, or anuses and bottoms in fingers and elbows. I have none of them left They have almost all been destroyed, but I have some derivative forms of work done after that. I suspect the people doing this are a combination of religious extremists and authorities, a difficult mix. The real target has always been the writing, I've come up with a way of determining what a person's sexual preferences are without fail by using written erotica. I have a feeling I may be going up against something a lot larger than you think. I may be going up against 200 million pedophiles all of them defending their way of life and what happens after the family picnic. They want to make sure the man in the long raincoat gets blamed for everything. This is why I keep pointing out that this is a national plague, so other countries can defend themselves against the onslaught of false righteousness at least with a little of their own nationalism. That's enough for now, check your facts, then check mine.

aaron_nw
aaron_nw

I am entirely opposed to rape, but this witch-hunt to defend children from sex has gone overboard. If a child is injured, forced, coerced, or something similar then it should be a crime. But if it is something that a minor agrees to there has to be some legal gray area. Perhaps it might never be appropriate for someone to have sex with an 8 year old, but certainly a 14 year old can decide who he or she wants to have sex with.

AddieC
AddieC

I apologize for the three part but a few more thing occurred to me as I was fixing lunch... Who is actually going to handle this gigantic social problem? I'm not sure even our healthcare industry and our psychological professionals are capable of dealing with this issue because it is too much of a bread-and-butter problem. It is the largest moneymaker for counselors in the world. Nine out of 10 children are inappropriately dealt with sexually by today's standards and most people who going to therapy look for excuses for all the things that have happened to them and they have done. I think that you will find that those people who are wounded for life based on one event, have adopted somebody else's parasitic philosophy and have been paying for it there whole lives. this is Dr. Dawkins primary point and I am 100% with him. but who can we turn to for honesty and for real solutions? I don't think politicians can handle it because it makes and breaks careers, I don't think public figures can handle it because their popularity ratings depend on defending the status quo. I don't think the legal system is capable of clear thought or informed decision and decides liability is what runs the show. As a social scientist and certified therapist I'm just gonna come out and say it, if you were going to do some research and you're going to publish a study probably ending up saying that most of the psychological damage to incest survivors and victims of abuse in most cases is actually caused by their therapists and relatives and support systems then nobody's going to fund you or print you. There's at least another 40 years of "I can survive " paperbacks to be sold in the supermarket… The profit motive, in every possible sector of our existence seems to be threatening to wipe out the human race.

AddieC
AddieC

I am finding a lot of the more violent and vehement comments about this topic that there is a certain defensiveness. Americans are less capable than most citizens of the planet at making up their own minds, it's strange we have too much information to make informed decisions. There's no question that you cannot recognize something unless you understand it within yourself. Don't you find it odd that we are the nation with the most junior cheerleaders, majorettes, gymnasts, child beauty pageants and a host of other symptoms of sublimation of attraction? We have both the largest number of cases of such events, the highest percentage, and the most number of laws which is the greatest indicator of activity. A lot of our fear shame and horror seems to come from our own impulses and urges, and science refuses to look at this at all. It is career suicide. We are defining children as increasingly older beings for sexuality and increasingly younger beings for violence this schism needs to be examined. I think it is a symptom of culture getting older, the boomers and the larger generation to follow. Our age of consent is ridiculously high considering global culture and media pressures. Again this is creating a whole new criminal class of sexual deviance between the age of 13 and 18. The justice system is out of control, we know this we are a prison mad country with uncontrolled growth in all sectors of law enforcement, but criminalizing children is really not good for America's future. Dawkins has always been brave, and sometimes foolhardy. But this windmill is bigger than him because it's in all of our minds.

mary.waterton
mary.waterton

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the SCOTUS doesn't  eventually strike down "age of consent" laws as unconstitutional on the grounds that it deprives people under 18 of their civil rights. 

Lawrence v. Texas wasn't a slippery slope. It was a ski jump to the next level of depravity.

zhahiray
zhahiray

is it technically abuse if a preteen girl is winked at by a man much older than her by the pool while she was wearing her one piece bathing suit? I mean, not as damaging of course, but she still remembers it years later, because of that creep factor. And let's just say it didn't help her self esteem one bit..

hector.delacruz
hector.delacruz

Wow. A child molester's apologistics dream come true. Sad.

ShamsAci
ShamsAci

LEGAL AWARENESS WELFARE (LAW): 

Was Sex With Children Ever O.K.? "Things were different then" is no excuse for inappropriate sexual contact, no matter how permissive the era


One of the most immoral crime happens on earth, under the high heaven is victimising children for sex (the innocent monors of human generations), unutterably shamful matter for humans needs to be very seriously condemned on humanitarian ground and banned strictly by instant judiciay, lagislation and law enforcement. For that UNICEF should play the vital role with the collaboration of country governments and NGOs as well.

- A.R.Shams's Reflection - Press / Online Publications - Moral Messages for Humanity Worldwide



ellephgee
ellephgee

This is a complex topic that deserves more than a few paragraphs.  The actual article has little to do with its' title.  Unfortunately, sexual mores change over time and have migrated to the sensationalized hysteria we see today.  The culture of the "victim" has effectively censored a rational debate.  I certainly have no answers, only questions.  As a retired criminal defense lawyer, I have seen consensual sex between an adult and a minor where there was no "victim" until the authorities entered and created the "victim".  The entire machinery of the state was used by counselors and  psychologists to convince the minor that he was victimized. I am not advocating adult/child sex.  I think it is disgusting. But such situations have made me question my "knee jerk" reaction to this type of crime. I am merely stating that victimization may, as the article states, be as varied as all other human emotional states.  We must ask, objectively, questions and factors such as age, maturity, societal and cultural mores, and whether we are are creating victims in certain cases, and many more questions.  How do we deal with this while doing the least harm to the victim?  Like I said, no answers, only questions.

TomRobbins
TomRobbins

@AddieC This is what happens when there is no objective morality.  All people back in Roman times did not think it ok to have boys have sex with grown men, but they were the ones in AUTHORITY, of course the masses were disgusted by it.  This is what happens when you take the faith out of society or warp it to control people, just ask Joe Stalin or hitler.  Very troubling as it seems you are condoning the mans views.  I won't condemn you for it, but I would never allow you or anyone who believes is Subjective morality around my kids, thats for sure!

AddieC
AddieC

The Y-chromosome is no longer necessary. So whether you're lost in space or not, active viable sperm cells can be made from the bone marrow of a woman's female partner. Won't be long before the Amazons wipe us all out buddy.

Just joking. Will keep us around as domestics I'm sure

AddieC
AddieC

off-topic but a brilliant analogy in the dichotomy between sex and violence, yes of course you are correct, please expand on this in a better read forum...

AddieC
AddieC

I have to marginally disagree with you although I understand your point and I appreciate your candor. I think that there is an emotional capacity for love which has been idealized, idolized and allowed in the past. I think one of the problems we have in our modern culture is we have forgotten that a lot of love existed without necessarily taking it to its physical final destination. The very word itself implies love, not sex.

Another problem we have is we have started defining everything as rape. To achieve the legitimate social agenda of provoking outrage, we steal the outrage from a savage and violent crime and apply it to a ton of other incidents that happen that may not be as violent or forceful. I don't think forcible rape was ever endorsed or allowed outside of war or slavery.

Our age of consent was actually supposed to coincide with the age of reason, the ability to make a decision with knowledge of consequences. This has gone up and down throughout history with various social and political agendas in mind. Most people in the world think that the notion that a 15-year-old cannot make a rational decision about a physical relationship is ludicrous… until you mention that we are talking about American 15-year-olds. I'm not being insulting, I'm talking about one of the lowest literacy rates, one of the highest teen pregnancy rates, one of the highest transmission of STD rates… Because of our laws or in spite of them we have the worst situation in the Western world... somewhere on par with some countries in Africa… to suit the current political agenda for filling the jails to the maximum everywhere all the time, I suggest we raise the age of consent to somewhere around 25.

The lessons of history are not easily learned when you are trapped in a censorious, violent, repressed state of denial.

this topic is hard enough to talk about, just to explain that it probably has not happened as much as you might think with endorsement and a hell of a lot more than you know based on individual desires. it is in countries and societies where it is taboo to discuss this that it happens the most.

The extreme physical act is probably less common in policy than we think, with the exception of the ancient Greeks, who considered pederasty to be a crucial part of the development of character and teaching, I think historically there was a whole lot less sex and a whole lot more ideology happening. there was an emphasis on "true love, and pure love " which comes out in the poetry of several cultures, Asian and European which implies youth and chastity.

....to contradict myself, I was discussing a very ancient illustrated Kama Sutra with a friend of mine. he said "oh my God you would have to have a 17 inch penis for most of these positions!" I started studying the proportion of the drawings and realized that the men were all giants. I mentioned this to him, and his next comment was "… and all the women are so flat-chested and small hipped… " ....then I realized that the men were not giants…

AddieC
AddieC

I especially like how you started, "rape is never okay " it's very important that we continuously observe this rule, if we are to respect a persons sanctity. I say a person: I mean a woman, a child, a man - anybody we need to establish that as a baseline in society. I was shocked recently reading a study done a few years ago which yielded, as an aside that about eight out of ten Americans in surveyed were in favor of rape as a form of punishment, or to teach a lesson.

This was apparently across many demographics, levels of education, and ages.

People instinctively say "that must be untrue! "I thought so at first too.

The specific questions asked involved the rape of convicted child molesters and rapists. Many people felt it not only suggested but necessary. Over half of them felt this very strongly. Do you think this is true? What do you think? Is this unconscious emotional needs they have manifesting in the power reversal?

I maintain that if you agree it is ever okay under any circumstance, then human psychology is flexible enough to adjust the circumstances. This is why you have all of those sometimes surprisingly educated people who say "she asked for it " We need to maintain that it is not okay. we need to move away from reductionist philosophies that lump everything under one word or category, we need specifics, we need to have assault indicators, a scale of 1 to 100 perhaps, to describe the nature of offenses… We shy away from it as if we are afraid to reveal something of ourselves. In the law especially.

Anyway, keep on reading, raising awareness, and never be afraid to talk out loud.

AddieC
AddieC

I would have to agree with the gentleman above in that I do not think it has ever been endorsed to the point where it would knowingly cause physical harm, and permanent damage. Definitely not rape. Not in any religion, any faith, any dynasty. Some simple people in ages past have mistaken the word marriage, to imply full marital rights including sexuality, this again is not true. every once in a while you hear a horror story from rural uneducated Muslims that swiftly peaks in the international press. Again this is the barbarism of an uneducated illiterate, not the religion or custom. In history child marriage has been common to preserve capital, real estate, dynastic structure, and forge alliances. You hear about the occasional child bride story coming from India, again this has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with family. Again I'm talking about the physically impossibly young and the inconveniently young, they have never been Okay, not the teenagers, today's soup du jour.Something we haven't really gotten into is that this articles title is slightly sensationalistic and too provocative. Each one of us has a completely different definition of what sex is. For some it's physical intimacy ranging from a look to a caress or touch, maybe more... For some of us it is hard-core penetration and nothing else. For the purposes of social argument many people will choose the worst possible definition they can think of. This is the fire that generates the smokescreen. The next thing is, of course each of us has a different definition of what childhood is, what a child is, what are young adult is, each and every one of us. as I mentioned in almost every case on the Internet the word pedophile is used inappropriately, unscientifically, and wholly incorrectly. The actor and poker player James Woods, in his 60s, was seen recently with a 21-year-old date. again, thousands of times on the Internet he was called "pedophile " Remember the stronger the reaction, the more violent it is, the closer you are to the psychological trigger of the person in flames. I can only tell you, if a 21-year-old is reason for a lynch mob to call you a "pedophile "then there is no male I've ever known who is safe from death or worse. I don't have any solutions, I can only tell you that there is a growing awareness that something is wrong, and a lot of people have to be involved in order to keep so many people ignorant so much of the time. I can also tell you that after a few drinks, a group discussion, it appears like something like 8 to 9 out of 10 people have been abused and somewhere other. This is not the work of one man in a trenchcoat from somewhere else. if we're not allowed to study it, if discussing it makes you guilty in the eyes of the mob, then we have no hope. As long as we need remain ignorant we will not find a path out of the darkness.If you read carefully you'll see that I'm not at all generalizing about the whole nation, just a majority claiming to define culture, threatening violence continuously, and hiding the fact rest of the world using this continuous smoke screening. I fully believe that 33% of Americans have nothing to do with this psychologically and are getting caught up as the victims of the largest mass hysteria in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DenialThis topic is so sensitive that the most common approach will be very simple denial. See above. However just plain statistics will tell you that I am correct to a degree if not completely. therefore "no "is incorrect by default. it is I'm sure very comfortable. next step is to retreat into the safety of 200 million co-conspirators. but be careful, each one is angling and waiting for someone around them to screw up so they can be tossed into the flames.

For the sake of accuracy and truth, and assuming we are all goodhearted clear minded individuals in the pursuit of knowledge and the furtherance of benevolent society, we should come up with definitions which are very specific in discussion.

Rio
Rio

@AddieC I have always believed that the fuss by media and other's who want a certain response are the true villains.  Those who brainwash people into being "victims" rather than participants. 

uumystik
uumystik

@AddieC Even tho there was a certain amount of consensuality to the experience, I was seduced and pressured in a way that left me feeling abused by a family member. I thank my intelligence that I knew enough not to let the "therapists" cure me of the hurt. They kept trying to tell me how damaged I was and how horrible the person was who did it. Actually, learned a lot about myself thru the experience, and the person who did was a statutory rapist, but also a very complex person who had a loving side. When I told them I didn't feel so bad as they said I should, they would argue with me and tell me I just hadn't dealt with my feelings yet, and that I would never be able to be healthy until I faced my grief. But by telling me how terrible I should feel, the therapists were actually supporting depression. I'm glad I had the spirit that helped me to keep things in perspective.   

Of course, my semi-consensual statutory rape is not the same thing as a brutal rape, and I want to be compassionate to those who have had far worse experiences. But tho I hate to say it -- because I understand the emotional reaction my statement will cause -- even in the latter case I believe most therapists -- and most friends and family -- cause more pain than healthful recovery to victims. The victim needs empathy. They need to know you care. But they also need to know this was something that happened to them -- like a malevolent gunshot wound -- but that with the right attention they can recover. The memory will always be painful, but it doesn't have to be an obsession.

And of course, people will respond that I don't get it -- that rape is not like a gunshot wound -- that it penetrates more deeply into the psyche. But to this I say that tho there is an important element of truth to that, we do not make things better by losing our perspective. I believe I suffered more subconscious damage from long term parental verbal abuse than from short term sexual abuse. Rape is terrible -- I'm not trying to say it isn't -- but it does not need to be the end of your productive life. You can still be happy and you can still have healthy sexual relationships. You just have to have the support of others who can keep their heads, and the strength to STAY AWAY from professional therapists. 

This is the first time I have expressed my view, because I can not share it even with the people I love. I think that shows how this culture's unhealthy relationship with sex hurts the very people it thinks it is helping.

ellie299
ellie299

@AddieC People in other countries do rape and molest little children.  Most of the time, it is also family members by the way.  Or religious teachers.  Awareness about issues is not a bad thing, I think you are going a little far when you say that the people in nursing homes are put there because they are pedophiles themselves.  I think the old people in nursing homes is more a reflection of American's ideas about functionalism (if you can't work, you have less value) and I don't know maybe independence, because some aging people I have known said they would like to be in nursing homes so they can be around people their own age and be independent, not dependent.

I think pedophilia is a sexual perversion, maybe all people have some type of uncomfortable sexual thoughts that disturb them.  Repressing strong thoughts/impulses/feelings have been proven to be a major factor in developing mental illness.  But because we live in society, and because we don't want to hurt other people, we also can't simply act out all of our impulses.  So we have to mitigate them and find ways to act them out.  In particular if there is a power difference involved.  

But yes.  Americans have issues with the body/sex.   And there is some weird media stuff with pedophila-type themes. White people are just hyper aware about everything, I believe the goal in the end is improvement of society and ourselves.  Maybe there is some confusion about what constitutes rape, as well as what is "normal" sexuality and what is normal emotionally and physically as well.  There is a fake ideal sold, and it seems like normal, imperfect things are twisted into something perverted.  And maybe too much attention sometimes makes things worse, but repression and suppression is also VERY RAMPANT in other countries, much more so than here, and that is more harmful in my opinion.  Denial of rape, denial of the existence of mental health disorders, denial of abuse.....these are all harmful and prevalent in non-western countries.  Pretending rape didn't happen, or wasn't what it was, hurts people, and the same with denying mental disorders exist.  The people with mental disorders end up misunderstood/abusedWhat is your reaction to that?

MichaelSchmidtman
MichaelSchmidtman

@AddieC 
We aren't at ALL in the nation with the most pageants, etc.  I'm in the Philippines right now, and you apparently have no idea what it is really like in this particular country.  This fact calls into question your entire point.  That said, best NEVER be caught molesting a child in this country.  Justice/retribution is swift, sure and final for that type of offense.

AddieC
AddieC

You will find every rabid, violent moralist is acting from behind a mask, it is their fear and their desire being projected subconsciously. it will loudly for example claim to be defending their children, but what they are really defending I s their own feelings about their children. It will also invariably descend into ad hominem attacks when this topic comes up. Our knowledge of human sexuality has not actually involved in the last 100 years because of people hiding and attacking anything they fear will reveal them. What can we do about this? They hide with violence and murder. These cultural variables also cross borders, Canada is in fear of the barbarians to the south. I'm beginning to think that you have to be gay or an alien in order to even understand this issue at all, because otherwise you're stuck in the middle of it.

ellie299
ellie299

@ellephgee Really great post, "victimization may be as varied as all other human emotional states."


AddieC
AddieC

There is a strange factor in some cultures, and that is, as the age of the contact becomes both more acceptably close and consensual the level of violent opposition is much greater. there are a host of factors behind this, some from the biological perspective some psychological and some legal. I do know that the greatest amount of attention and the largest number of cases are statutory and what this does is it ties up legal resources to the point where the serious victims of child abuse the younger children are not paid attention to because there's no tears, money or time left... When Canadians look at the American news and see dozens, even thousands of stories about 17-year-olds raping 15-year-olds etc., they ask the question was it really "rape?" Don't we need some new language, some more specific words and terms, because this is a psychological trick which steals the outrage from a crime of violence and deprives many if not most actual seriously wounded rape victims of the attention and resources they deserve. In order to get more attention most of the sensationalist press even leaves off the word "statutory." I also believe this seriously endangers the life of the accused in today's climate, and they should be held liable for this.

TomRobbins
TomRobbins

@AddieC Wow, drank the Dawkins Kool Aid for sure!  There IS an OBJECTIVE morality... its just when people in authority (secular or religious), which are usually the sickest among us, claim its ok, do we have such horror.

skram08
skram08

@AddieC Ugh, the fact that you define rape as only being violent and forceful is a perfect example of rape culture at work. 

Coercive rape is extremely common, especially in cases where a power disparity exists- for example, a teacher with student, a prison guard with a prisoner, a husband or relative with an individual who is subject to intimidation and therefore complies out of fear or resignation... these are all rape. 

What about a woman who is unconscious? She can't resist, there's no need for force and she wont even remember it- is that rape? 

You need to understand that rape does not only fit one definition- that of the violent stranger accosting some random stranger in an alleyway. Most rape is done by someone known to the victim and many, many rapes do not involve excessive force or violence, but that doesn't make the repercussions any less devastating the person who has been raped.

studying_nomad
studying_nomad

@Rio @AddieC Wait, how many of ya'll are there? Participants? So when Addie's grandpa touches his grand-kid, the kid is a participant, not a victim, wow. Dude, I'm all for individual responsibility, but calling a kid a participate because you're afraid of dis-empowering by a label created by humans to distinguish between two people in an unwanted experience is going pretty far. If I decide to pull out a gun and rob the next guy that passes me on the street, I'll be sure to reassure him that he's a not a victim, but a participant. Maybe I'll even thank him for his participation. Or does that not count, because violence = victim? Ya'll are calling the "masses" "brainwashed" for not being able to follow these mental gymnastics.  

AddieC
AddieC

anything that disempowers the individual, that takes away their ability to say "I feel this way " is in many ways just evil. There's no denying the profit motive of somebody who wants you to visit them every week for $200 an hour.there's no denying a sensationalist media that as far as I can tell now every single time drops the word statutory when they mentioned rape cases in order to get higher ratings, and why do people always gravitate towards the nice juicy story of a violent rape anybody? people who manifest intelligence maturity and introspection are punished, they are called names, they are often given drugs which may make them feel horrible, and they are brainwashed with this notion that they are victims. You're very correct and very succinct. I cannot advocate the use of drugs in my therapy I use hypnosis, and I use NLP and diminishing submodalities in re experiencing of negative experience. If you research that one line will tell you how to do it. i'm not really about profit I'm more about helping people eventually I'll get my book together. don't be afraid to speak out, ever. Liars run from the truth. sorry for any typos or weird words, I am using a mobile device and speech to text to get back to you. A.

AddieC
AddieC

i'm really glad that you have pulled yourself out of that very profitable well of self-pity that the system would have thrown you into. this is something I would like to work on with my therapeutic method into the future I'm not necessarily telling people how to feel but guiding them to be emotionally self-reliant in the manner which you instinctively manifested. there's going to be a lot of animosity, especially from the professionals because this is big bucks. your courage and your introspection are something that I think you should write about more, given the climate in the country today be anonymous invent a pen name, most authors do. I too am a survivor, but I think a woman's story is more important in the context of our culture and the number of problems that happen. you're going to have to almost each and every time you explain self empowerment, make all the disclaimers you had to add here. let me share with you one of the ways in which you were different from the mob from the masses.

if you look at the trolling going on above, one person has tried to express an opinion whatever that may be, and pedophile name-calling has begun. this is fear for the truth coming out. One thing I have found in my web searches in my research for my writing is that this name-calling is very common. we are the only country in the world we're almost every "family recreational activity" involves half nude children jumping crawling and twisting around. Whether it's majorettes, cheerleaders, swimming, gymnastics, diving, volleyball, child beauty pageants the list goes on and on. They exist to some degree in other countries but the dad with the handy cam is an American icon. We are obsessed with "stranger danger and yet everybody knows that 90% of assaults happen by family members and people we know. it seems like all of the male members of all these families are conspiring to blame somebody somewhere else far away violently for their own attractions. The evidence is there. 90% are at home or by friends. This is something that only happens in the United States, also 90% of the time that particular name, pedophile is used it is inappropriate it's pointed at the wrong age group almost by factor of five years or six years in every case I have recently seen. These are not stupid people they know the real definition of the word, they are just pretending they don't. This is what I call age displacement denial, it is a person trying to put as many years between their feelings and the reality as possible. So they are calling somebody who is "normal in another country" via age of consent laws, a possibly lethal name in order to make this distance between their real attraction and their public presentation of self. I'm just pointing this out to you, so you can see this, it is an emotional Plague because we are talking about most Americans. And I have a feeling their reactions are so strong because their attractions are so strong. If you're familiar with the notion of libido, any energy of attention whether it's aggression or erotic is still a manifestation of libido. Aggression is libido that is unconscious or repressed. People who have an innate attraction to inappropriately young children often attack those attracted to teenagers. There are two major types one that knows they're attracted and are creating a smokescreen, and one that is completely unconscious and dangerously violent. They will one day usually in their early 70s suddenly realize this and maybe do something terrible. This is the secret reason so many elderly Americans are packed off to nursing homes that are like jails. I have lived and worked in six different countries. This is all more common in Canada and the United States. I just wanted you to have the insight as to how far your introspection and your ability to love have taken you. thanks for sharing I hope you will know just how special you are.

MichaelSchmidtman
MichaelSchmidtman

@uumystik @AddieC 
There IS damage done when the latency period of sexuality is accelerated, whether by cultural/media assault (ultra-sexualized imagery and confusing social messaging) or by direct molestation.  You can only excuse this damage by claiming we have "progressed" beyond a standard that seeks to protect the young from sexual predation by adults who are unable/unwilling to control their own self-centered urges.
Look, we can debate the age of consent, but let's not open our cultural/social standards to the point that they weaken the very fabric that has been constructed to protect the "innocent" while they are simply trying to grow up.  We are looking at potential  consequences we are not equipped to fully understand in our headlong rush to  be "open minded" and progressive.  This is typically a recipe for disaster, and it won't serve us well...

AddieC
AddieC

i'm afraid that the Philippines did not evolve any of those customs on their own, people in Texas did not learn child beauty pageants from the Philippines. It's very common for developing nations to copy what we do in United States the more glamorous and profitable it is the more it will happen. The larger other events, Super Bowl etc. Formula One don't happen that so they have to have more of these, and the cost of having events in those countries is dirt cheap so they can do it all year, but that's not the original that's not where it started and that's not where it gets the most media attention. Thankfully in much of South America and Asia where these are being copied the costumes are much more modest and the ages are older.

Mike, would you care to share the age of consent in the Philippines with us?

I find several of the world websites don't tally at all with what I hear from people in the countries.

It's always good to make sure that travelers know to behave themselves.

One interesting thing about child beauty pageants is the age categories almost exactly match the increasing sentencing categories for rape the state of Texas. This is a coincidence, but it reveals a psychological process subdividing attraction in human behavior. This is why I mentioned Texas, because laws are the natural evolution of a reaction to events in society. If you do not have people molesting sheep there are no laws against beastiality in your community. The way to really analyze the sexuality of a particular genetic community, state, or county is attempted legislation, not always that which passes. You have to look at the bills that don't make it that's what you see the weird ones.

....and as for your last point quite frankly I would suggest not being caught anywhere, it's not pleasant anywhere at all.

in India they castrate you right at the arrest, you don't even make it to the jail. I don't approve of this, I'm just a student of human behavior.

studying_nomad
studying_nomad

@AddieC Dude, what are you talking about now? 17 yr olds and 15 yr olds? Most states have a three year rule. Calm it down with the hysterics. 

AddieC
AddieC

Hi, this is a topic for a different thread but it has come up here so I'll address it. Perhaps you didn't read me carefully enough. If you read through my thread you will find that we do not have enough words to describe the number of crimes we have therefore we apply the word rape to everything. I don't know why the attack is so often directed at people who want more specificity and more accuracy in language. It looks like the goal is to obscure the truth. That there are different categories and levels of assault. Is this true or not? I do not know how you can hope to be scientifically socially morally or legally accurate using one word to describe 100 different crimes. If another word does not create the necessary outrage you feel should be happening, isn't that society's problem?

Shouldn't we be raising awareness of a variety of crimes rather than just one and trying to revise their definition of that one to fit everything? We have more words.

I find most of the casualties of this are the people who have suffered horrendous atrocities, need immediate attention and you have to wait in a line of the hundred people that were miscellaneously fondled or looked at funny. I'm not being flippant here this is a real problem. Rape is not always rape. You think so,and you're very simply wrong. In seeking inaccuracy and enforcing an inaccurate definition you are your own worst enemy. In the Third World, and countries with very tiny infrastructure all you're going to do is create a fog of war which will legitimize all rape.

If all robbery is robbery, which it is in the broadest moral sense, why do we have petty theft, grand larceny, and various levels of swindling charges? Tax evasion?

I feel like this is just a lot of rote repetitive behavior by political correctness robots. It may be a clever kind of sabotage to the women's movement from the inside, just like Dworkin's war on pornography.

Syncing out a good broad definition of human and women's rights with a larger vocabulary: Think it out and come up with some new definitions.

AddieC
AddieC

The guy you're robbing is indeed participating in the social drama of a robbery that is simple logic get over it. There is a difference between "participant" and "willing participant" but you are obviously a political correctness bot, so I should substitute the word victim for all common nouns...

AddieC
AddieC

Reductionism is a very useful antagonistic tactic.

Lump several people together, combine opinion anecdotes and fact, choose a piece of language which is imprecise, actually in this case which is logically precise but does not fit your emotional flavor of the week politically correct attitude, which by the way is projected onto the anecdote,

then invent an analogy which describes a single type of situation and then pat yourself on the back.

Very good now you can go to the second grade.

ellie299
ellie299

@AddieC Once, I went to see a professional therapist because I was depressed.  In a really fragile state.  She only saw me one time but she told me that my "body language" indicated I had been sexually abused as a child. I spent the next few months trying to recover memories that didn't actually exist.  I shouldn't have been so easily influenced, but all the same, who did she think she was?? 

studying_nomad
studying_nomad

@AddieC Dude, you're all over the place here. So, you're saying that American adults who call other adults pedophiles when they hook up with a fourteen year old, are themselves the true pedophiles, but it doesn't come out until their 70's? Because these repressed tenancies that come out in grandpa, Americans and Canadians ship them off to nursing homes? Clearly, if I'm even trying to figure this out right now I'm procrastinating something in my own life, how's that for psychology.  

studying_nomad
studying_nomad

@AddieC I'm not gonna lie, man, I've been reading your very long comments trying to figure you out. You do sound a little crazy, and you seem to think that too. Yet you have some good knowledge, and I agree with a lot of things you say, but there is just something else going on. Uh, I hope you figure out yourself on this journey of yours. Good luck. 

AddieC
AddieC

I am not at all about societal change, I am entirely about individual change and individual self empowerment. A broken person serves no one except the bank account of the therapist and possibly their price tag in the system if they are on welfare or SSI. I think that we should be looking for proactive ways for people to be able to like that wonderful person above and to rise out of the miasma that they are sold. I think that facing the facts, looking at seriously gigantic statistics and not simply adopting a mob mentality of partyline every single time may actually serve us all better in the long run. I'm taking a risk by even discussing this topic however we're not in the 1980s or the 1950s so I'm hoping there are enough people out there that will understand. this is not the primary focus of my therapy either is just so common I run into it in people and discuss it often enough. I'm actually working on schizophrenic repression of personality and the return to the classic split approach which DSM five is practically ignoring. also I think we have lost some truth in moving to the term bipolar from manic-depression. I guess it's a bit too much like a conspiracy theory, but I think that there are some facets of earlier descriptions of psychiatric disorders that are actually being suppressed by the APA.